LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[sjduffers]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Still, what if he says "I'm going to play out my contract and then leave for LIV"?  Does the Tour suspend him from the playoffs for his future plans, even though he hasn't broken any of the contract requirements yet?  That seems problematic to me too.

Previously, the PGA Tour has only banned LIV players AFTER they hit their first tee shots on a LIV event. Before then, it was only: "this is what will happen if you go ahead".

So, yes, I could see him finishing his season on the PGA Tour and moving on to LIV afterwards, but that the fact that he won't admit it now make him look like a fool, who is disrespecting everyone he is talking to. Not a fan.

Edited August 10, 2022 by sjduffers

[Golfingdad]

11 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

... but that the fact that he won't admit it now make him look like a fool, who is disrespecting everyone he is talking to. Not a fan.

I am kind of surprised that the PR teams or publicists for these guys (I assume a lot of the bigger guys have those??) aren't convincing them that these are bad ideas in the long run.  For guys (I'm thinking of Bryson from a year or so ago, I have to assume it applies to others too) that are concerned with their "brand," how are they not seeing how many fans they are turning off with these decisions?

They either don't really care, or they are convinced that in the long run, LIV is going to be a success and well received?

[ChetlovesMer]

26 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

Previously, the PGA Tour has only banned LIV players AFTER they hit their first tee shots on a LIV event. Before then, it was only: "this is what will happen if you go ahead".

So, yes, I could see him finishing his season on the PGA Tour and moving on to LIV afterwards, but that the fact that he won't admit it now make him look like a fool, who is disrespecting everyone he is talking to. Not a fan.

I have no idea, but is it possible he's still mulling over the decision? Maybe he really doesn't know what he's going to do? Maybe he wants to leave all doors open. Again, I don't know him, so I really have no idea. 

[Darkfrog]

20 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I am kind of surprised that the PR teams or publicists for these guys (I assume a lot of the bigger guys have those??) aren't convincing them that these are bad ideas in the long run.  For guys (I'm thinking of Bryson from a year or so ago, I have to assume it applies to others too) that are concerned with their "brand," how are they not seeing how many fans they are turning off with these decisions?

They either don't really care, or they are convinced that in the long run, LIV is going to be a success and well received?

I'm guessing that the LIV guys don't actually care about fan perception all that much.

As far as brands go, I don't know anything about how marketable PGA Tour players are, but I don't believe any of the guys who have left for LIV have true star power to have monetary value that is simply associated with their name (e.g. Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan). Maybe Phil Mickelson had this. Now that Bryson, Brooks, and DJ are not on the PGA Tour, they have basically slipped out of existence for me.

My thought on the role of the PR team is that their job is to spin perception of their client's decision so that defecting to LIV doesn't make them look like a greedy asshole. I'm sure the agents and managers are happy to take their cut of the LIV money, and maybe they are more influential to a player than their PR team. Judging by some of the statements the players have made, they don't have very good PR teams, or they player's are just too dumb to actually follow the plan the PR team prepared.

[ChetlovesMer]

4 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

I'm sure the agents and managers are happy to take their cut of the LIV money, and maybe they are more influential to a player than their PR team.

I never thought about that. hmm....

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Shindig said:

The lack of restraining order doesn't surprise me, but I think you have more expertise in this arena than I do.  I think the reasoning was it was not an emergency, it was foreseeable, they knew it would happen, and they took their time filing it.  I think if they had known it was going to happen, and did it anyway, and filed right when that happened, they'd have a better argument.

The judge specifically said that she felt it was filed in a timely manner.

It seems to have come down almost entirely to the fact that they were not harmed nor were they going to be.

[Moxley]

On 8/6/2022 at 6:47 PM, 70sSanO said:

I agree with you.  I don't have the answers to this.  I don't know why the PGAT and not the DPWT was selected since, I believe, both organizations have suspended players.  A bit more puzzling with the Stenson situation.

I am also not sure of the Premier League situation and why the Saudis didn't pursue any litigation.  Part of me thinks that there are certain sports you just don't mess with because the clubs and fanbases will rise up if they feel any threat, especially from a foreign government.

I think the PGAT is low hanging fruit and its fanbase will not react as footballer fans might, or even the fans from the birthplace of golf.  I can't say.

I do feel that recent times have proven that the proper spin and fear has much more of an impact regardless of the reality of the spin.  As an example, if the spin was, "The Saudi Govt is going after American golf and American football and baseball are next," you have engaged a much larger and more vocal portion of the population.  Plus, the rhetoric is no longer directed at players or LIV, but a silent stakeholder that may not be able to win the social media war.  It makes little difference about the validity of the spin, only the fear of the spin.

John

 

Definitely. I posted earlier in this thread that I think there's a lot of media manipulation here, and to a lesser or greater extent it works. I think the media is probably extra motivated by the types of human rights issues Saudi Arabia has as they clash with liberal western values , and the PGA is doing a savvy job in leveraging the media to whip up anti LIV sentiment.

It's similar to what happened in the Europe with the super league - I don't necessarily think the outcome will be the same because Golf is global , but it's certainly making LIV's job harder.

[Moxley]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I am kind of surprised that the PR teams or publicists for these guys (I assume a lot of the bigger guys have those??) aren't convincing them that these are bad ideas in the long run.  For guys (I'm thinking of Bryson from a year or so ago, I have to assume it applies to others too) that are concerned with their "brand," how are they not seeing how many fans they are turning off with these decisions?

They either don't really care, or they are convinced that in the long run, LIV is going to be a success and well received?

 

You may think it's bad idea and are turned off, but that doesn't necessarily apply to all or even a majority of golf fans. I suspect they do have those guys, and they are probably better than the average Joe at distinguishing narrative from reality. They are probably telling these golfers something like the following : 

 

Quote

The 9/11 Commission said that the Saudi government wasn't involved," Feherty said. "People that criticize are doing business with China, doing business with Russia. China, in particular, is a country where they're murdering Uyghurs left, right, and centre, and their human rights record is horrendous. You can point to various countries throughout the world. I wouldn’t want to behave like that, but wherever golf is, good happens, and I’m hoping this will do the same thing. [LIV] has said its going to donate $100 million to area charities."

And while I'm sure LIV will go down badly with millions of golfers in the US and Scotland, I'm not so sure that it will be the case in places like Asia, mexico etc. Even in somewhere like USA opinion will ultimately likely divide (rather than going entirely anti-liv) if they have somebody like Trump championing their cause. 

I think if most of the best golfers end up on Liv - which is not yet the case but the gap is closing - most golf fans will ultimately follow, even if it takes years.  

[turtleback]

6 hours ago, chspeed said:

Me neither.

But as tweet above said, this is indeed a big loss for PGA and a big victory for LIV. All the other top players recruited are in the afternoon (or twilight) of their careers. He's arguably on his way up (#2) and is among the world's best putters right now.

I don't think it was as big a loss for the PGATour as the denial of the TRO was for the LIV players.

6 hours ago, Bucki1968 said:

This is exactly what I was thinking when the news came down. Why wouldn't other players follow this same path. Why bail on the Pga tour in the middle of season? 

They want their LIV money and they want it NOW.

[Missouri Swede]

1 hour ago, Darkfrog said:

Maybe Phil Mickelson had this. Now that Bryson, Brooks, and DJ are not on the PGA Tour, they have basically slipped out of existence for me.

When I saw a picture of Phil a week ago, the thought that initially went through my mind was that “he used to play golf.”

6 minutes ago, Moxley said:

I think if most of the best golfers end up on Liv - which is not yet the case but the gap is closing - most golf fans will ultimately follow, even if it takes years.  

Or some of us will stop watching it altogether, except for the majors.

[Big Lex]

My buddies and I were discussing Cam Smith while watching the Open, and we all felt sure he would eventually jump. The more guys jump - especially guys like him, a current top player in his prime - the more others will want to follow I think.

It's said everyone has a price. I wonder what I would do if someone offered me 10 times what I already make to do my same job (or even an easier, less stress version of it). The temptation would be so strong. But no matter how many times I roll the idea around in my head, I can't imagine allowing myself to say yes to an association with the Saudi regime, at any price. I would be afraid I wouldn't be able to live with myself, and once you make the decision and go, it's with you forever, you can't take it back. 

So are all these guys just sort of morally and ethically inert? I don't like thinking that way, I like thinking that these guys are basically just normal, good people. But it seems like it would take alot of rationalization for someone with an active conscience and strong ethics to join something like this. People keep saying "greed," but everyone is greedy to a point. Usually there are attendant risks in any situation which counteract greedy impulses. I guess I'm happy I won't ever have to make such a choice. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Big Lex

[GolfLug]

56 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

So are all these guys just sort of morally and ethically inert? 

It can't be that black and white. It's not like they would kill someone for the right price (at least I don't think). They have a ceiling too. Its just that their ceiling is higher and selfishness is thicker than yours. It's that simple. 

In the context of this whole thing they qualify as world-class douchebags. You know like the assholes who take up two parking spots just so no one else could park close enough to have the possibility of dinging their precious paint job. 

[jshots]

1 hour ago, Big Lex said:

My buddies and I were discussing Cam Smith while watching the Open, and we all felt sure he would eventually jump. The more guys jump - especially guys like him, a current top player in his prime - the more others will want to follow I think.

It's said everyone has a price. I wonder what I would do if someone offered me 10 times what I already make to do my same job (or even an easier, less stress version of it). The temptation would be so strong. But no matter how many times I roll the idea around in my head, I can't imagine allowing myself to say yes to an association with the Saudi regime, at any price. I would be afraid I wouldn't be able to live with myself, and once you make the decision and go, it's with you forever, you can't take it back. 

So are all these guys just sort of morally and ethically inert? I don't like thinking that way, I like thinking that these guys are basically just normal, good people. But it seems like it would take alot of rationalization for someone with an active conscience and strong ethics to join something like this. People keep saying "greed," but everyone is greedy to a point. Usually there are attendant risks in any situation which counteract greedy impulses. I guess I'm happy I won't ever have to make such a choice. 

Personally don't think joining a saudi backed golf league makes you immoral. There is a lot to unpack there IMO - but its not like they are joining LIV and getting sent a designated caddy slave. I'm sure you could find some immoral ties through the PGA Tour as well.

Its really just a shame they can't all play nice and let players pick and choose events. OWGR should almost step in and say, we don't give a f*** where you play if the field is good enough and you follow a certain set of rules, and here is a completely unaffiliated playoff event that is strictly OWGR based.

Let the best events come out on top.

[iacas]

Uhhhh…

1 hour ago, Big Lex said:

My buddies and I were discussing Cam Smith while watching the Open, and we all felt sure he would eventually jump. The more guys jump - especially guys like him, a current top player in his prime - the more others will want to follow I think.

They have only 48 spots, though. So it's not like everyone can just keep going there.

[Big Lex]

7 minutes ago, jshots said:

Personally don't think joining a saudi backed golf league makes you immoral. There is a lot to unpack there IMO 

I agree. I wrote morally ethically "inert" because I didn't want to call them truly immoral. I just wondered if somehow they maybe just don't think of these things on that level or at that depth....it's a job, and they go where the pay is good, and don't ask questions. Or something like that.

And I do believe there is a difference between actually doing something criminal and working for someone or something which is tied in some way to illegal activity. Not to go down the rabbit hole of comparisons (i.e., we all live off their oil, yadda yadda yadda), but it is not as if the entire Public Investment Trust is comprised of blood money. 

[chspeed]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Uhhhh…

They have only 48 spots, though. So it's not like everyone can just keep going there.

Ugh. Such a tired argument. The idea that humor has to rely on offensive, stereotypical tropes is just a sign of an old, lazy crank. He can't change, so it's everyone else's fault they they don't find him funny anymore.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, chspeed said:

Ugh. Such a tired argument. The idea that humor has to rely on offensive, stereotypical tropes is just a sign of an old, lazy crank. He can't change, so it's everyone else's fault they they don't find him funny anymore.

I just found it funny that he went to LIV so he could "speak his mind." Which, if you watched the first event he did… he was just saying a bunch of suck-up type shit about that stuff. It wasn't more honest, it was just the same old stuff in a different format.

Plus, what you said, yes.

[Zippo]

41 minutes ago, jshots said:

Personally don't think joining a saudi backed golf league makes you immoral. There is a lot to unpack there IMO - but its not like they are joining LIV and getting sent a designated caddy slave. I'm sure you could find some immoral ties through the PGA Tour as well.

Its really just a shame they can't all play nice and let players pick and choose events. OWGR should almost step in and say, we don't give a f*** where you play if the field is good enough and you follow a certain set of rules, and here is a completely unaffiliated playoff event that is strictly OWGR based.

Let the best events come out on top.

Sure. I can see it now. Augusta National could have a 54 hole event with teams and a shotgun start. They could hand out brown jackets to the winners...