Is the PGA Tour Good for Golf?

[ncates00]

28 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

Is the PGA Tour too successful for its own good? We have Jordan Spieth, age 26, with a net worth estimated at $100M. If this young man loses his hunger and desire to perform due to swimming in all of that money, where will this leave him? What will he do for the remainder of his days? It seems that there are a lot of young men who get hyped as perhaps the next great golfer and you wonder what that pressure can do to them. It makes for a great story and might get you to tune in on the weekend.

For a lack of a better word, are these young talents being pimped and is there too much money involved that can be a corrupting influence? Achieving a high net worth can reduce the amount of striving one does.

Your allusion to corruption is unfounded here. There is nothing wrong with a player not “striving” like he once did. It’s his life and he made his money. This happens in the professional world all the time. Ever heard of retirement? There are plenty of executives and other professionals that take higher paying jobs to pay off debt and then leverage that experience (like a Big 4 accounting firm or top law firm, for instance) to grab a slightly less paying job, but one that has better hours and perhaps a pension. So should he have stayed in that high paying, high performance, high stress environment? That person maybe isn’t “striving” like you say, but he has earned and paid his dues. Back to golf, Spieth doesn’t play golf for you. He plays for himself.  It’s pretty presumptuous if you to say he isn’t motivated or striving. Perhaps he is but for that 2-3 year span, things just clicked and he caught fire in a bottle. Golf is hard man. Not every player can compete year to year at such a high level. Additionally, Spieth is a person with things going on in his life, things you aren’t privy to. It’s really easy to Monday quarterback and that’s all you’re doing here. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by ncates00

[GolfLug]

45 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

For a lack of a better word, are these young talents being pimped and is there too much money involved that can be a corrupting influence? 

Only if it is in their personality to just have fun playing club level golf because bills are paid for a couple of generations out. Sure there are players like that in any sport but hardly applies to all of them. 

I think the counter argument is that with no money worries they are freed up to stop playing defensive golf just to make a cut  and go at it all out.... if it is what's in their nature. Play to win, not 2nd..

Jordan doesn't look like he is happy playing mediocre golf since he his sitting on a pile of money. His frustration seems genuine. 

[DaveP043]

52 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

Is the PGA Tour too successful for its own good? We have Jordan Spieth, age 26, with a net worth estimated at $100M. If this young man loses his hunger and desire to perform due to swimming in all of that money, where will this leave him? What will he do for the remainder of his days? It seems that there are a lot of young men who get hyped as perhaps the next great golfer and you wonder what that pressure can do to them. It makes for a great story and might get you to tune in on the weekend.

For a lack of a better word, are these young talents being pimped and is there too much money involved that can be a corrupting influence? Achieving a high net worth can reduce the amount of striving one does.

What would the alternate be?  Companies are willing to sponsor tournaments and purchase advertising, they're willing to pay golfers to use their gear and wear their clothes, or just put the name of the company on their hat.  Should the golfers as individuals or the PGA Tour as an entity say "No thanks, we want to stay hungry"?  

I wouldn't say these guys are being "pimped out", to me that implies that their talents are being used to make money for someone else.  These guys are using their talents to make money for themselves.  Sure, the impact of sudden wealth may not always be completely positive, maybe some guys do get lazy and complacent, that's their privileged.  There will always be outstanding players coming onto the scene, happy to take the place of a guy who doesn't feel like striving any more.

 

 

[NJpatbee]

22 hours ago, klineka said:

How does maximum roll out in the fairway and speedy greens make it more entertaining to a casual golf watcher?

It makes for drives of 340+ yards total which sounds awesome.

IMO I don't think a casual golf watcher cares or really notices if the ball rolls 10 yards after it lands or 30 yards after it lands.

The announcers make it sound exciting

Same with the green speeds. A casual golf watcher most likely wont be able to tell the difference between a 10 stimp green and a 13 stimp green when watching on TV.

Watching the ball roll by the pin off the green and into the water is entertaining to some people, or at least certain producers of golf broadcasts

My point was that the PGA Tour wants there to be "exciting" and "entertaining" portions of their product and IMO it impacts the course set up.

[Carl3]

3 hours ago, ncates00 said:

Your allusion to corruption is unfounded here. There is nothing wrong with a player not “striving” like he once did. It’s his life and he made his money. This happens in the professional world all the time. Ever heard of retirement? There are plenty of executives and other professionals that take higher paying jobs to pay off debt and then leverage that experience (like a Big 4 accounting firm or top law firm, for instance) to grab a slightly less paying job, but one that has better hours and perhaps a pension. So should he have stayed in that high paying, high performance, high stress environment? That person maybe isn’t “striving” like you say, but he has earned and paid his dues. Back to golf, Spieth doesn’t play golf for you. He plays for himself.  It’s pretty presumptuous if you to say he isn’t motivated or striving. Perhaps he is but for that 2-3 year span, things just clicked and he caught fire in a bottle. Golf is hard man. Not every player can compete year to year at such a high level. Additionally, Spieth is a person with things going on in his life, things you aren’t privy to. It’s really easy to Monday quarterback and that’s all you’re doing here. 

I just picked Spieth because there seems to be a lot of talk about him, such as the 172 posts on this website under the heading "Will Jordan Spieth Come Back". My point is maybe there is a bit too much money floating around and that these incredibly young guys hit their "number" very early in life and may not be able to achieve what had they set out to do as far as wins.

I hit a net worth number and have lost a lot of the motivation I once had for professional achievement, but I am in my 50's. So I was speaking from experience and also to all of the young guys on the tour. I do thing the PGA pimps these guys out a bit with the commercials and promotions. They have their favorites that they want to see succeed and others they rather keep in the closet.

I don't watch much golf, am not Monday quarterbacking anything. Didn't mean to pick on your boy or anything. 

[ncates00]

3 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

I just picked Spieth because there seems to be a lot of talk about him, such as the 172 posts on this website under the heading "Will Jordan Spieth Come Back"

That's fine.  

 

3 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

My point is maybe there is a bit too much money floating around and that these incredibly young guys hit their "number" very early in life and may not be able to achieve what had they set out to do as far as wins.

That's a dumb assertion.  "Too much money"--really?  More power to them for having success, I say.  

 

4 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

may not be able to achieve what had they set out to do as far as wins.

How do you know what their goals are?  To use Spieth as the continuing example, he's already had one heck of a career--better than most pros have had their entire life.  In other sports we see this burning star phenomenon all the time.  There's more to life than just trophies: quality of life (relative to their position), time with family, other commitments, not breaking down the body further, etc.

 

6 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

I hit a net worth number and have lost a lot of the motivation I once had for professional achievement

Congrats.  Seriously.  Not being sarcastic here.  However, you're making my point for me.  The fact that you're in your 50's is not dispositive.  Poor argument.  Young folks can be successful too.

Pimp the players out?  What in the actual hell are you talking about?  Golf is merit-based: you win or you lose.  That doesn't mean that the Tour doesn't have favorites and televises some more than others, but so what?  That's their prerogative--go win some damn tournaments and success will come your way.  BS argument.

Not monday quarterbacking--uh yeah you are.  And Spieth isn't my boy--I simply addressed your foolish arguments directed at him in particular.  However, my reasoning remains the same for all players.

[Carl3]

38 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

That's a dumb assertion. 

Well I think that is an argument many have against professional sports in general. Many see a bunch of spoiled brats and it can become a real turn off.  I think it is naive to dismiss idea that that money has the potential to corrupt the innocence of a person or a sport. I don't think early success on the scale mentioned is necessarily the recipe for enduring happiness. 

With professional sports and with society in general, there is no going back. I am a guy who remembers the days when the Olympics was for those with amateur status. Money has corrupted the Olympic spirit. Now it is something I cannot even bear to watch. College football is approaching that for me as well. I have a limited appetite for that anymore.

Enjoy the show and I will stick with my dumb assertions and reserve the right to push the off button.

 

 

 

[ncates00]

23 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

Many see a bunch of spoiled brats and it can become a real turn off. 

Good grief, get over yourself.

 

23 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

I think it is naive to dismiss idea that that money has the potential to corrupt the innocence of a person or a sport.

What does this have to do with Jordan Spieth?!

 

23 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

I don't think early success on the scale mentioned is necessarily the recipe for enduring happiness. 

Ok, but slugging through a career of golf with nowhere near the success of Spieth is?  You have no idea what someone else's version of "enduring happiness" is.  He's young, talented, accomplished, is married, etc.; seems to me like he has it made so far.  You're starting to sound like a "get off my lawn you entitled brats who don't work as hard as I did back in my day" kind of guy more and more.  Come off it already.  Your kind of baseless arguments are the reason why "Ok Boomer" is a thing.  

 

23 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

With professional sports and with society in general, there is no going back.

Back to what?  Less pay for people doing a job?  Jealous much?

 

23 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

I am a guy who remembers the days when the Olympics was for those with amateur status. Money has corrupted the Olympic spirit.

We're not talking about the Olympics!  Quit ranting about the good old days, Grandpa. Nostalgia isn't always as grand as you think it was.  Athletes are bigger, stronger, and perform better than ever.

 

23 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

Now it is something I cannot even bear to watch.

Ok... so don't.  

 

23 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

College football is approaching that for me as well. I have a limited appetite for that anymore.

Not the topic of this thread.  Ok... so don't watch.  I don't watch either.  

Instead of ranting and jumping around ideas you have in your head, provide some valid, critical logical reasoning and analysis to the topic at hand.

Edited February 22, 2020 by ncates00

[Carl3]

40 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Good grief, get over yourself.

 

What does this have to do with Jordan Spieth?!

 

Ok, but slugging through a career of golf with nowhere near the success of Spieth is?  You have no idea what someone else's version of "enduring happiness" is.  He's young, talented, accomplished, is married, etc.; seems to me like he has it made so far.  You're starting to sound like a "get off my lawn you entitled brats who don't work as hard as I did back in my day" kind of guy more and more.  Come off it already.  Your kind of baseless arguments are the reason why "Ok Boomer" is a thing.  

 

Back to what?  Less pay for people doing a job?  Jealous much?

 

We're not talking about the Olympics!  Quit ranting about the good old days, Grandpa. Nostalgia isn't always as grand as you think it was.  Athletes are bigger, stronger, and perform better than ever.

 

Ok... so don't.  

 

Not the topic of this thread.  Ok... so don't watch.  I don't watch either.  

Instead of ranting and jumping around ideas you have in your head, provide some valid, critical logical reasoning and analysis to the topic at hand.

Lets just say that I don't necessarily think the PGA has been good for golf as it seems over commercialized, OK? Some people like Disney World and others prefer a good museum. Say hi to Mickey, OK?

[iacas]

4 hours ago, ncates00 said:

Quit ranting about the good old days, Grandpa.

Tone it down a bit.

[Vinsk]

@ncates00 be like:

[Buckeyebowman]

12 hours ago, ncates00 said:

Your allusion to corruption is unfounded here. There is nothing wrong with a player not “striving” like he once did. It’s his life and he made his money. This happens in the professional world all the time. Ever heard of retirement? There are plenty of executives and other professionals that take higher paying jobs to pay off debt and then leverage that experience (like a Big 4 accounting firm or top law firm, for instance) to grab a slightly less paying job, but one that has better hours and perhaps a pension. So should he have stayed in that high paying, high performance, high stress environment? That person maybe isn’t “striving” like you say, but he has earned and paid his dues. Back to golf, Spieth doesn’t play golf for you. He plays for himself.  It’s pretty presumptuous if you to say he isn’t motivated or striving. Perhaps he is but for that 2-3 year span, things just clicked and he caught fire in a bottle. Golf is hard man. Not every player can compete year to year at such a high level. Additionally, Spieth is a person with things going on in his life, things you aren’t privy to. It’s really easy to Monday quarterback and that’s all you’re doing here. 

The last few times I've seen Spieth on a golf telecast it hardly seemed like he was self satisfied, or "coasting"! His lack of performance seems to be eating him alive! And instead of looking at Spieth, let's look at Tiger. What did he go through to get back out there and compete? And his net worth throws Spieth into deep shade! 

7 hours ago, Carl3 said:

Well I think that is an argument many have against professional sports in general. Many see a bunch of spoiled brats and it can become a real turn off.  I think it is naive to dismiss idea that that money has the potential to corrupt the innocence of a person or a sport. I don't think early success on the scale mentioned is necessarily the recipe for enduring happiness. 

With professional sports and with society in general, there is no going back. I am a guy who remembers the days when the Olympics was for those with amateur status. Money has corrupted the Olympic spirit. Now it is something I cannot even bear to watch. College football is approaching that for me as well. I have a limited appetite for that anymore.

Enjoy the show and I will stick with my dumb assertions and reserve the right to push the off button.

 

 

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree, and I honestly don't know where to start! Let me go sentence by sentence. As far as spoiled brats go, if you are one of the best in the world at what you do, and you're NOT making money, you are doing something very wrong! And I think that painting them all as "spoiled brats" is painting with a very broad brush! 

As far as naivete and innocence, I'm wondering just when you lost yours. Was it before 10, like most of us? 7,8, or 9 years old when it happened? And think what you will about early success, it guarantees nothing. And you have no right to ascribe any thought process to anyone else! 

@iacas, I will apologize in advance here. But, when @Carl3 talks about the Olympic spirit, he reminds me of poor, old, brain addled Avery Brundage prattling on about the "purity" of Olympic competition. Meanwhile, under his nose, the skiers, skaters, track and field competitors, hockey players, etc. were making money hand over fist! All the IOC did after he retired was recognize reality! After they changed the rules, USA Basketball was going to do the same old thing. Cobble together a college all star team. When the IOC got wind of that, they went to USA BBall and said NNNNNNNO! The ticket buying public wants to see the best, and they want to see your NBA players! That became the "Dream Team", and it changed basketball world wide! 

And college football is "approaching" that? OMG! Where have you been?! For about at least a half century! And that goes for basketball as well. There are sugar daddies and hundred dollar handshakes all over the place! 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Buckeyebowman

[Slim_Pivot]

On 2/20/2020 at 8:21 AM, iacas said:

But, taking it the other way. Imagine a world in which there was no PGA Tour? Would we even have a Distance Insights report, because some clubs may not have chosen to chase distance and build 7500 yard courses? Would we have slow play? Would we have our weekends free for the six hours or more that some of us watch golf? Would we be paying less to play golf, with lower equipment costs, green fees, etc.?

No distance report

still slow play. Golf would be way less popular, so fewer courses. Fewer courses means the few ppl who did play would all be on the same courses.

We’d have more free time to fiddle on our phones and less topics to fight about on your site...or maybe the site wouldn’t exist?

I dunno about golf equipment. I’d relate that scenario to mountain biking. Plenty of crap out there, premium is expensive...but premium is expensive now. I would guess they’d be behind where they are now 

all opinions

[boogielicious]

16 hours ago, Carl3 said:

Lets just say that I don't necessarily think the PGA has been good for golf as it seems over commercialized, OK? Some people like Disney World and others prefer a good museum. Say hi to Mickey, OK?

They have gotten more commercial over the years. The advertising on the shirts and hats is a good example. I don’t really Iike it. It reminds me of NASCAR or Euro soccer teams where you can’t even determine what the team name is through all the ads on their kits.

The on-air commercials pay the bills unfortunately. That is why I usually watch with my iPad and either read posts on this site or play a good crossword puzzle.

But in terms of growing the game, they have been good IMO. From as far back as Arnie days, the tour has embraced commercials as a way to reach out to fans more. So there are some positives.

[phillyk]

17 hours ago, Carl3 said:

Lets just say that I don't necessarily think the PGA has been good for golf as it seems over commercialized, OK?

Let’s first say PGA Tour. Hopefully you didn’t intend to bundle PGA of America into this. Unfortunately, being commercialized is a way to make money, especially with people willing to pay for it to make their own business successful.  But then, one could think about the Masters. A lot less commercialized but it has become special for that reason. And unless the membership were all wealthy, that event would never happen the way it does. 

I wonder, what big sport isn’t commercialized? Even tradition must evolve in some ways to stay relevant. 

[Slim_Pivot]

1 hour ago, phillyk said:

Let’s first say PGA Tour. Hopefully you didn’t intend to bundle PGA of America into this. Unfortunately, being commercialized is a way to make money, especially with people willing to pay for it to make their own business successful.  But then, one could think about the Masters. A lot less commercialized but it has become special for that reason. And unless the membership were all wealthy, that event would never happen the way it does. 

I wonder, what big sport isn’t commercialized? Even tradition must evolve in some ways to stay relevant. 

I don’t think the problem is just being commercialized. PGA Tour is just way over doing it at the expense of putting out (close to) its best product.

That thing where the PGA Tour won’t let Peter Kostis ask first time winners about getting into the Masters (gotta ask them about the amount of cup points they won) is a prime example.

Their unwillingness to ever talk about majors is gross.

[Buckeyebowman]

13 hours ago, boogielicious said:

They have gotten more commercial over the years. The advertising on the shirts and hats is a good example. I don’t really Iike it. It reminds me of NASCAR or Euro soccer teams where you can’t even determine what the team name is through all the ads on their kits.

The on-air commercials pay the bills unfortunately. That is why I usually watch with my iPad and either read posts on this site or play a good crossword puzzle.

But in terms of growing the game, they have been good IMO. From as far back as Arnie days, the tour has embraced commercials as a way to reach out to fans more. So there are some positives.

In one of David Feherty's books he responds to a question by a reader, who asked why when one pro golfer started putting their shades on their hats with the lenses in the back, everybody else followed. He replied, something like, "Because they all got calls from their agents telling the players not to cover up the logo on the hat! Those people are paying you money and Oakley, or whoever's re-entry shields you are wearing, are not! And if they are, where's my percentage?!" 

12 hours ago, phillyk said:

Let’s first say PGA Tour. Hopefully you didn’t intend to bundle PGA of America into this. Unfortunately, being commercialized is a way to make money, especially with people willing to pay for it to make their own business successful.  But then, one could think about the Masters. A lot less commercialized but it has become special for that reason. And unless the membership were all wealthy, that event would never happen the way it does. 

I wonder, what big sport isn’t commercialized? Even tradition must evolve in some ways to stay relevant. 

Exactly! Boogie mentioned Euro soccer teams. The money some of those players get make some American sports look like absolute pikers! 

[Double Mocha Man]

When I was ineptly and mistakenly thinking I could become good enough to make the tour it was my plan to play without logos... on bag, shirt, cap... anywhere.  I would have been a pauper on tour.  Thank goodness I wasn't good enough.