Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

[Vinsk]

4 minutes ago, colin007 said:

It really looked intentional to me. Doesn't pass the smell test.

What did? Oh, you mean the HD replay you saw that you didn't see during the tournament? That one? You mean you didn't follow Ryu around and watch all her moves with a HD/Slo-Mo play back? 

[boogielicious]

14 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

IIRC, the RoG initiative addresses this and people won't be able to do this anymore if the new updates are put in place. I assume they apply to the LPGA too?

I went and looked, but I didn't see it.

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/major-proposed-changes.html

 

[nevets88]

4 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

I went and looked, but I didn't see it.

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/major-proposed-changes.html

 

 

Quote

Proposed Rule: Under new Rule 1.3a(2), whenever required to estimate or measure a spot, point, line, area or distance, the player’s reasonable judgment would be accepted if:

The player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make a prompt and accurate estimation or measurement.

This means that the player’s reasonable judgment would be upheld even if later shown to be wrong by other information (such as video technology).

Reasons for Change:

The Rules generally rely on the integrity of the player, and this is a natural and appropriate extension of this trust in the player.

There are many times when the Rules require a player to estimate or measure a spot, point, line, area or distance, such as when the player:

Uses a ball-marker to mark a ball’s spot, and then replace the ball, or
Needs to find a reference point or reference line for taking relief (such as the nearest point of complete relief or the line from the hole through the spot of an unplayable ball), or to determine the extent of a relief area (such as measuring a fixed distance from a reference point or reference line).

Such judgments need to be made promptly, and players often cannot be precise in doing so.

So long as the player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances:

The player gets no penalty for any small inaccuracies, irrespective of any advantage gained.

Accepting a player’s reasonable judgment would limit “second-guessing” that can arise from the use of enhanced technology (such as video review when golf is televised).

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-proposed-changes/proposed-change--reasonable-judgment-in-estimating-and-measuring.html

[JxQx]

It's very odd that fans can determine the outcome of the events in golf, especially a day later at that. I think it is stupid and It makes me somewhat curious on how many tournaments would have ended differently throughout the years if every player was recorded in high def and could be called in on?

[Divotmaker77]

Lexi's emotional reaction of finding out made it pretty clear to me that she very likely was not cheating.  If you cheat and get caught you may say some things, have a mean look on your face, etc. but I do not recall ever seeing someone in tears the rest of their round because of it.

This is the issue with golf. You have one side who are golf purists.  Gotta hit in order on the tee box based on last hole's score, extreme sticklers to the rules, etc.  Then you have the group (majority) who just want to have fun.  Play ready golf, pick up your ball on a blow up hole, etc.

Whether you agree or disagree with the ruling yesterday it was simply a bad look on the game to the casual fan.  Even Tiger commented at how ridiculous it was. 

[14ledo81]

To those complaining about the fan calling in, would it make you feel better if they would have just said something like this.."We continually have officials reviewing video, a rules infraction has come to light, we are now going to submit the proper penalty".

I think what some don't get is the fan does not get to make the call if there is a penalty or not.  That still falls on the rules officials.

 

[Jakester23]

4 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

 

I think what some don't get is the fan does not get to make the call if there is a penalty or not.  That still falls on the rules officials.

 

So if a fan didn't email in would they still have issued her the penalty?

[Houselr69]

Golf took another hit against its growth this weekend. Emailing in the next day a penalty? Who knows that the person who emailed in was not an anti-Lexi fan? (they exist in every sport, even golf) They could have waited to and saw her success. 

OK, let's say there was no conspiracy. To the rest of the world, those people we all hope join and play golf, it is laughable, unbelievable. We realize golf is a self-policing sport but this has to be changed, if we want to grow. If she was back 8 strokes and that put was not shown, no one would have known. What she did no way gave her an advantage. 

Sad day for golf. At the beginning of golf's premier week. 

 

[cipher]

12 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

To those complaining about the fan calling in, would it make you feel better if they would have just said something like this.."We continually have officials reviewing video, a rules infraction has come to light, we are now going to submit the proper penalty".

I think what some don't get is the fan does not get to make the call if there is a penalty or not.  That still falls on the rules officials.

 

For my part I get that the violation was verified.  I have an issue with the severity of the penalty on what is a tap in putt(and yes I read how the penalty was assessed before, it is still ridiculous) and the fact that it was not assessed until the back nine on the next day.

[boogielicious]

10 minutes ago, Houselr69 said:

Golf took another hit against its growth this weekend. Emailing in the next day a penalty? Who knows that the person who emailed in was not an anti-Lexi fan? (they exist in every sport, even golf) They could have waited to and saw her success. 

OK, let's say there was no conspiracy. To the rest of the world, those people we all hope join and play golf, it is laughable, unbelievable. We realize golf is a self-policing sport but this has to be changed, if we want to grow. If she was back 8 strokes and that put was not shown, no one would have known. What she did no way gave her an advantage. 

Sad day for golf. At the beginning of golf's premier week. 

 

Welcome to The Sand Trap. I hope you stick around for all the other good golf content we have besides this topic.

[Braivo]

I will say this again, the two stroke penalty for "incorrect scorecard" is an archaic rule that needs to go asap. She was unaware of the penalty when she signed the card. It was rule from an era when they only verification of a player's score came from the card he/she turned in. Not so anymore, time to move on from this. 

[MrDC]

I support the ruling and do not believe Lexi didn't know what she did, the girl doesn't look good to me right now, you can't move your ball over an inch, and she clearly did.

If she had won, and this infraction was shown after the fact, the runner up would have been very upset, better this way and I think deep down Lexi knows it.

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by MrDC

[WestKyGolfer]

Not a fan of call-ins but if the officials are made aware of an infraction they have to act on it.

After watching the replay several times, it looks to me to have been a deliberate act. She marked to the side of the ball and immediately moved the ball directly in front of the marker. If it was not deliberate it was very sloppy. I am a fan of Lexi and I hate that this happened to her, but it was entirely her fault. 

[Valleygolfer]

58 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

4 - you guys that say say she cheated on purpose - I got no respect for you, it's petty and pointless,

 

I guess I have no respect for you either then? Ask yourself, if you pick up your ball that you've marked and put it straight down immediately in a different spot, do you not notice?

I mark my ball with a quarter an inch behind inline with the hole every time unless I am on the fringe or in someones line. I don't every put it back haphazardly in a round that counts because if I did I would notice.

 

[iacas]

8 hours ago, gregsandiego said:

Can we agree there is a difference between officials and fans at home? It seems to be self admitted incompetence by LPGA if it's an interactively judged event like American Idol or something.

No.

And the incompetence here was on Lexi's part. She has a responsibility to follow the rules and failed to do so.

6 hours ago, mvmac said:

I think they'll look into it but at the end of the day I don't know what else can be done. You could have a cut off for penalties when the next rounds starts but the tournament is still ongoing. The player's score is based on 72 holes of golf, you can't have a player be "safe" from a violation they made during one or more of those 72 holes. They did modify the rule so that it's a penalty for signing an incorrect score instead of a DQ. 

Plus then someone would commit a penalty on the first hole and someone would catch it on the 16th hole, and then the bleeding hearts would say "no, now they should change it to 'when the hole is over'"…

At the end of the day, the Rules of Golf have established the close of the competition as the end of it. It's a line, and it applies to all players.

6 hours ago, mvmac said:

I do acknowledge it does seem odd that you can have a spectator impact the final result of a tournament.

Really, Lexi impacted the final results. She is - again - ultimately responsible for her own actions and knowledge of the rules. She failed.

Everyone's blaming the tattler, not the perpetrator.

I won't go so far as to say she cheated but she breached the rules of golf.

6 hours ago, mvmac said:

With the delay, it's better that they get it right than rush and get it wrong. They also don't have the option of stopping play or something like that.

Correct.

6 hours ago, zero said:

I'm confused about the additional 2 strokes for signing an incorrect card. At the time, the card was correct because she hadn't yet been assessed a penalty.

The card was incorrect at the time she signed it - she had incurred the penalty strokes, but didn't write them down on her card.

5 hours ago, SG11118 said:

There is a bit of a disconnect that you need to sign your card after each 18 hole round, but they can assess penalties over the entire 72 hole tournament.  Why not change the rules to let the golfer officially sign for all four 18 hole rounds at the end of the 72 hole tournament?

That's not a disconnect. Besides, players don't often play the four rounds with the same player. Some players are cut and go home, etc.

5 hours ago, SG11118 said:

Maybe you tentatively sign at the end of each 18 hole round, but that signature doesn't become "official" until the golfer has also signed for the tournament score?

How about golfers just follow the rules?

You're all stretching the bounds of logic in order to try to come up with some way to explain away someone breaching the rules. How about this simple solution: follow the rules of the game, or suffer the consequences?

3 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Caught the playoff hole and subsequent interviews and talking heads. Wow, brutal. Definitely sucks for Lexi, but they could have shown a little more class and respect for the winner. They flat out called her "undeserving" of the win. Classless. 

That's pretty brutal, you bet. Lexi is not a victim here, but the ultimate winner - So Yeon Ryu - should not be made a victim either.

3 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

If golfers are supposed to uphold the rules and referee themselves, then why are spectators getting involved?

Because the golfers failed to uphold the rules.

3 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

"Lexi had a responsibility to follow and uphold the rules. She failed."  So the responsibility then falls on t.v. viewers?

Sure, why not? If it gets us closer to the truth… You'd rather someone knowingly commit a breach, seen by millions, and win a tournament anyway? Do you think the player would want that? The fellow competitors? The game itself?

That's why I was so adamant in 2013. It's not what's right.

Who cares where the info comes from - a spectator may be a credible witness to a breach of the rules, too. Or a security guard. A fellow competitor. A camera man. Etc.

They can't make stuff up. But they can point out that the facts should be examined.

3 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

There were many other balls marked and replaced on the green that weren't shown on t.v., so aren't some players under more scrutiny than others?

If you can come up with a way to ensure that golf is completely fair, you'll be a wealthy man. Then you can tackle life being fair.

3 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

George cheating on his taxes is not the same thing.  Cheating is not the same as breaking a rule.

Sure it can be - George did it unknowingly. Guess what? He still gets to re-pay what he owes, and he still has a penalty on top of that.

I've been clear in saying I don't think Lexi "cheated" - she did breach the rules.

3 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

You can DQ yourself after the tournament is over?

Kinda, sure: http://www.golfdigest.com/story/20080721sirak

"Creamer once disqualified herself for a rules violation--the day after the tournament ended when she realized she had violated the rules."

2 hours ago, Lefty-Golfer said:

They hide behind the rules and the past, they refuse to allow logic to enter the think tank.

Oh brother.

The logic is "here's a game, we have these rules, and we don't get to decide not to apply them just because we like the player in question or something else."

2 hours ago, Lefty-Golfer said:

There is no defense IMO for a penalty be able to be called over the span of days after the fact but then to not be able to change the scorecard.

Sure there is.

2 hours ago, Lefty-Golfer said:

Based on the rules I don't have a major issue with the 2 strokes for the ball replacement...the additional 2 for the scorecard are just BS.

She signed an incorrect scorecard. There's an additional penalty for that.

If the worst thing that would happen is that you paid the same penalty as you would have had you upheld your responsibility to the game… we'd be one step closer to players voicing ignorance about all sorts of rules and just hoping nobody noticed. Because, worst case, why you just get the penalty you deserved anyway… There's no real downside.

2 hours ago, Hatchman said:

I'm not a fan of the call ins.  In other sports the game is dynamic with plays and games over quickly.  Only in an official protest on a rule interpretation, then award can a game be resumed from the point of the misapplication.  That's why, IMO, rules officials are out there.   

That's not why Rules Officials are out there.

I've been a Rules Official. We're not tasked with watching every possible thing like a hawk. The players have a responsibility to follow the rules. Lexi failed to do so.

1 hour ago, Hardspoon said:

That's not why the Rules Officials are out there. They are an (optional) resource provided for the players' benefit, in case they have questions.

Bingo.

1 hour ago, Hardspoon said:

Does anyone here think the LPGA thought nobody would mind this? No, they knew it would be an absolute shitstorm, but they did it anyway, because they had no alternative under the rules.

Exactly. They did the right thing.

Could you imagine how big the shitstorm would be if they found out that the committee knowingly overlooked a rules violation by a popular American player so that she could win?

Holy crap. You think armchair rules spotters who point out the truth about an event are bad… my oh my you'd all be apoplectic about that.

1 hour ago, Hardspoon said:

I think the ruling bodies are erring on the side of penalties, because the alternative - someone cheating and winning and it's discovered too late - is far worse.

Yup.

1 hour ago, Wally Fairway said:

While I agree with the ruling, IMO it is a double penalty for singing an incorrect scorecard. A player who is found to have incurred a penalty in a prior round should have the ability to sign an amended scorecard.

See above. That would be a shit show itself. Players would "unknowingly" fail to include penalty strokes all the time. Why should they if there's no additional penalty.

1 hour ago, Wally Fairway said:

To use a poor analogy to the tax situation - I can file an amended return if more information becomes available and I sign that return that it replaces the prior filed return. This it usually done when more information becomes available.

There's a limitation to that.

And if the IRS catches you, you don't get to file an amended tax return - you pay what you owe plus a penalty.

Just like what happened here.

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

It's all wrong. NO. So, should we go back and watch video of all the previous tournaments and see if we can find errors and change history? Why not?

Because the competitions have closed.

The ruling bodies drew a line, and it happens to be right there: close of competition (except in some exceptional cases).

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

NO sport allows this and neither should golf. 'Missing' calls is present in all sports.

No other sport asks the players to referee themselves. In other sports, players are actively trying to get away with about as much as they can.

The comparisons to other sports are a non-starter. They're pointless.

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Viewers calling in should have zero value. Zero. No argument to that. 

Yet many people are able to make arguments against that…

1 hour ago, Bucki1968 said:

I don't disagree with the penalty call (although I'm not a supporter of viewers calling in), but I don't think technically she signed an incorrect scorecard. At the time she believed that the scorecard was correct.

Belief is not a fact.

Fact: she incurred a penalty when she failed to replace her ball properly.
Fact: that penalty is two strokes.
Fact: she signed for a score which did not include the two strokes.
Fact: it's her responsibility to not only replace her ball marker properly, but to sign her card to attest to the true and proper score. She failed on both counts.

1 hour ago, Dege said:

The ONLY way to make this a level playing field is to have a camera on every single player, watching their every move.

Golf - and life - aren't fair. Sometimes the tree kicks your ball back into the fairway. Sometimes it bounces OB. Sometimes a large crowd prevents a ball from going OB, other times someone yells in your backswing.

If you can somehow find a way to make golf "fair" you'd be a famous man.

1 hour ago, Dege said:

We want to say our sport is self-governed and that we call penalties on ourselves. If that were so we wouldn't have debacles like this over and over.

Correct. Had Lexi simply obeyed the rules - or added the penalty - she'd have likely won and would be lauded for her honesty and integrity.

1 hour ago, Dege said:

They are there to enforce the rules.

They aren't. They're their to inform, to assist, etc. It's in the Definitions. You'll note that it says "that he observes." The RO in that group didn't observe it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The committee later decided upon the facts, and followed the rules in applying the four stroke penalty.

50 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Yes, the double penalty for "incorrect scorecard" is the rule that needs to be changed. This would be easiest to change as well.

I completely disagree.

She signed an incorrect scorecard.

33 minutes ago, cipher said:

Very well said, and it is bigger problem than many ROG apologists are willing to admit.

Another attempt at name-calling that's dismissive of the fact that there are reasons why the rules are the way they are.

33 minutes ago, cipher said:

This kind of thing should never happen the next day. It should be the same day or not at all.  The fans who attended the final round, I imagine were not very pleased to hear about this on the back nine...the next day.  

Next up… it should be the same hole or not at all. Sheesh.

Combine that rule with the idea that there should be no extra penalty… and you're gonna have a lot of people cheating on their taxes, pleading ignorant (and paying no more than they would have had they been honest) when they're caught, and hoping they can just get by a few months without getting caught so they can keep their ill-gotten money.

17 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

IIRC, the RoG initiative addresses this and people won't be able to do this anymore if the new updates are put in place. I assume they apply to the LPGA too?

It does not.

7 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

1 - Calling in - the rules need to change to eliminate that.  It's a circus.  Not a fan. never a fan.  Make the officials, the players and the tournament (only) responsible.

The player is already responsible. Lexi failed in her obligations and responsibilities here.

7 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Million dollar purses, the tourney can mobilize 18-36 judges - perhaps they can recruit them from the TV fan base.

They'd still miss things.

This gets things closest to the truth.

7 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

The players themselves need to step up en masse and protest - they don't like it, hardly even when it hands them a win.  Poor Ryu will always have an asterik next to her name here.

She will not.

And the players should step up and… follow and know the rules better. Absolutely!

1 minute ago, nevets88 said:

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-proposed-changes/proposed-change--reasonable-judgment-in-estimating-and-measuring.html

That's not going to cover putting your ball back in the same spot. That's for measuring 20", or where the ball last crossed the margin of a penalty area, etc.

33 minutes ago, Divotmaker77 said:

This is the issue with golf. You have one side who are golf purists.  Gotta hit in order on the tee box based on last hole's score, extreme sticklers to the rules, etc.  Then you have the group (majority) who just want to have fun.  Play ready golf, pick up your ball on a blow up hole, etc.

Ready golf is not against the rules unless you do so in order to provide player(s) an advantage.

And the LPGA Tour is not about "having fun." Nor are any real competitions - they follow a set of rules. Those rules likely don't include "pick up your ball on a blow up hole" (but will possibly include that in 2019+).

33 minutes ago, Divotmaker77 said:

Whether you agree or disagree with the ruling yesterday it was simply a bad look on the game to the casual fan.  Even Tiger commented at how ridiculous it was. 

Tiger was nicked (by me) for the same thing.

Of course players hate people calling in… because people generally only "call in" to report a violation. Players overlook the fact that, say, Rory's ball was found in the tree at Kiawah Island, allowing him NOT to return to the tee to play a third shot under the Lost Ball rule. But sometimes these outside observers help. Rangers help find balls for them. Spectators help too.

Players who don't like being called out on violating the rules should endeavor instead to not violate the rules.

32 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

To those complaining about the fan calling in, would it make you feel better if they would have just said something like this.."We continually have officials reviewing video, a rules infraction has come to light, we are now going to submit the proper penalty".

I think what some don't get is the fan does not get to make the call if there is a penalty or not.  That still falls on the rules officials.

Yeah. And they have an obligation to do what the rules say, based on the facts available to them.

27 minutes ago, Jakester23 said:

So if a fan didn't email in would they still have issued her the penalty?

Had they been made aware of it, they were duty-bound to do so, yes.

Imagine the shit show if they found out about a breach of the rules and, because it was Lexi and it was 20 hours ago… decided to do nothing.

Yeah, that'd be great for golf…

23 minutes ago, Houselr69 said:

Who knows that the person who emailed in was not an anti-Lexi fan? (they exist in every sport, even golf) They could have waited to and saw her success. 

Would that make them any less right in the fact that Lexi violated the rules?

12 minutes ago, cipher said:

I have an issue with the severity of the penalty on what is a tap in putt(and yes I read how the penalty was assessed before, it is still ridiculous) and the fact that it was not assessed until the back nine on the next day.

They applied the penalty in a fairly timely fashion, IMO.

And Nate, c'mon with the "severity" of stuff… the rules are the way they are because this "severity" stuff has been thought out, and it goes to the working principles of the sport. The ruling bodies are seeking to simplify the sport, not make it more complex. The penalty shall be greater than any possible advantage gained. Ball played from a wrong place, two strokes, that matches up. Short of providing a list of a hundred different scenarios and saying "1 stroke here, 2 strokes there" it's simple and effective.

Did she gain a 1+ stroke advantage? No. Nobody would say that. But that's not a reasonable way to write the rules… trying to subjectively determine the advantage gained. There are times when a ball played from a wrong place may be a 1-2 stroke advantage. So the penalty is two strokes.

6 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I will say this again, the two stroke penalty for "incorrect scorecard" is an archaic rule that needs to go asap. 

Completely disagree.

6 minutes ago, Braivo said:

She was unaware of the penalty when she signed the card.

So what? She has a responsibility. She failed.

See above for the longer version of this rebuttal.

3 minutes ago, MrDC said:

If she had won, and this infraction was shown after the fact, the runner up would have been very upset, better this way and I think deep down Lexi knows it.

Yup.

And like I've said… imagine the shit show that would exist if we found out the LPGA covered it up, too.

8 minutes ago, WestKyGolfer said:

Not a fan of call-ins but if the officials are made aware of an infraction they have to act on it.

After watching the replay several times, it looks to me to have been a deliberate act. She marked to the side of the ball and immediately moved the ball directly in front of the marker. If it was not deliberate it was very sloppy. I am a fan of Lexi and I hate that this happened to her, but it was entirely her fault. 

I agree.

I'm a fan of Lexi's too. I was a fan of Tiger's in 2013, too… but he done screwed up.

[Lihu]

44 minutes ago, Divotmaker77 said:

Lexi's emotional reaction of finding out made it pretty clear to me that she very likely was not cheating.  If you cheat and get caught you may say some things, have a mean look on your face, etc. but I do not recall ever seeing someone in tears the rest of their round because of it.

This is the issue with golf. You have one side who are golf purists.  Gotta hit in order on the tee box based on last hole's score, extreme sticklers to the rules, etc.  Then you have the group (majority) who just want to have fun.  Play ready golf, pick up your ball on a blow up hole, etc.

Whether you agree or disagree with the ruling yesterday it was simply a bad look on the game to the casual fan.  Even Tiger commented at how ridiculous it was. 

Honestly, she was probably just reacting to the fact that she realized that she lost 4 strokes to the field.

I also like Lexi, but have found that many of the golfers in this level of play know exactly what they are doing. There is some intent in almost every action.

When anyone marks a ball, they know exactly where it was marked. There is no reason for me to believe that most golfers purposely cheat to gain an advantage, but it might be a subconscious thing. I've found that I get lazy during practice rounds and end up just dropping the ball marker then picking it up and replacing the ball somewhere in the vicinity. Was that cheating? No, but the fact that I was so lazy and ended up putting the ball in the wrong place then signed my round, it's cheating. Not in the intentional sense, but from the casual cheating sense, like people kicking a ball out of a divot without thinking about it after the "winter rules" are no longer in effect.

However, at their level of play, every action is pretty much intentional. Not sure if there was an advantage for Lexi or not, and there might very well have been no real advantage to her action.

The fact remains that cheating can be with malice or just unintentional, the RoG does not distinguish between the two.

[iacas]

Michelle Wie was DQed in her first event as a pro (IIRC) because later that night or the next day, after Michelle had signed her card, Michael Bamberger of SI said that she dropped closer to the hole than she should have.

She too likely gained no real advantage. Aside from wondering why Bamberger didn't speak up sooner (perhaps before she signed her card or, really, even before she played the shot), we stood by the idea that it was Michelle who broke the rules then, and should have known better.

https://thesandtrap.com/b/swing_thoughts/woe_is_wie

https://thesandtrap.com/b/tap-ins/wie_earns_goose_egg

https://thesandtrap.com/b/tap-ins/our_last_wies_bad_drop_post

 

[cipher]

Quote

Next up… it should be the same hole or not at all. Sheesh.

Combine that rule with the idea that there should be no extra penalty… and you're gonna have a lot of people cheating on their taxes, pleading ignorant (and paying no more than they would have had they been honest) when they're caught, and hoping they can just get by a few months without getting caught so they can keep their ill-gotten money

A slippery slope rebuttal...seriously?  I can't take this seriously at this point.  Same day, that is all.