knott's Stubborn Takes on Golf, Particularly Instruction

[knott]

Editor's Note: these posts were moved from a few different topics. The moderation team felt that they didn't further the discussion in their original topics, so, they've been moved here. Links back to the original posts in quoted text will still take you to the original topic.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

This I agree with, though probably for a different reason than you had in mind.

You implied that a beginner should learn the basics and go on their own from there. I argued that a beginner should continue getting guided instruction. Those two statements are contradictory. You can’t agree with me unless you’re disagreeing with your previous statement.

You arent a beginner forever. 

[billchao]

1 hour ago, knott said:

You arent a beginner forever. 

Ok...

An intermediate golfer will be more likely to make progressive improvements in golf by continuing to work with an instructor rather than doing it alone.

An advanced golfer will be more likely to make progressive improvements in golf by continuing to work with an instructor rather than doing it alone.

A high level golfer will be more likely to make progressive improvements in golf by continuing to work with an instructor rather than doing it alone.

Did I cover enough non-beginners?

[iacas]

3 hours ago, knott said:

You arent a beginner forever. 

Again, Tour players work with instructors. You’re definitely trolling now.

Do what you want for your game. Stop when you’re making comments like this about everyone.

[knott]

28 minutes ago, iacas said:

Again, Tour players work with instructors. You’re definitely trolling now.

Do what you want for your game. Stop when you’re making comments like this about everyone.

I am not trolling just because I dont agree with you

[ShawnSum]

7 hours ago, knott said:

After having learned the basics there is little point in lessons.

How do you type this out and then hit submit as a 17 handicap? I browse these forums and several subs on reddit and this takes first place for being the dumbest advice I've ever seen. Congrats on that.

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, knott said:

I am not trolling just because I dont agree with you

I agree. You’re trolling because you continue to type out a dumb line of thinking while not adding or furthering the discussion.

Disagreement is fine. What you do for you is fine. But a few points have been raised against you and you just blithely keep saying the same stuff.

[knott]

1 hour ago, Billy Z said:

My thought is a beginner who's teaching himself the basics, how does he know the basics are actually right? He may be teaching himself over and over bad habits and ingraining them in such a way that it will harm his score as long as he golfs. What is important is finding an instructor who knows what he is doing and taking lessons from him.

It would be tough for sure. I knew nothing when I started. Was introduced by my brother. He helped me the most while being a +20 handicapper. Then Green card with our golf pro aiding further. Had plenty of time to study since then.

[Phil McGleno]

11 hours ago, knott said:

It would be tough for sure. I knew nothing when I started. Was introduced by my brother. He helped me the most while being a +20 handicapper. Then Green card with our golf pro aiding further. Had plenty of time to study since then.

I've had about four or five occasions to hire a lawyer-I guess I should just represent myself in court from now on since I essentially have my own law degree.-What do you do for a living @knott?-Surely someone knows enough about doing what you do after watching a few YouTube videos.

[knott]

1 hour ago, Phil McGleno said:

I've had about four or five occasions to hire a lawyer-I guess I should just represent myself in court from now on since I essentially have my own law degree.-What do you do for a living @knott?-Surely someone knows enough about doing what you do after watching a few YouTube videos.

I am not quite following you here. 

What I see here is some believe in lifelong lessons with instructors will make you better then using your own head. Some believe after a certain point you can help yourself the most. 

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by knott

[Phil McGleno]

30 minutes ago, knott said:

I am not quite following you here.

You seem to think that if you take a few opportunities to learn a little bit to get you started-That you can do the job others train their whole lives for and who do this for a living.

So what do you do-And are you comfortable with someone else saying that they can do it after you teach them for a few hours and they watch a few YouTube videos?

30 minutes ago, knott said:

What I see here is some believe in lifelong lessons with instructors will make you better then using your own head. Some believe after a certain point you can help yourself the most.

Some means plural-The only person saying that is you.

There is no evidence to support your claim.-PGA Tour players by and large have instructors and get instruction. The better the player the more likely it is that they got instruction-And that they will get instruction in the next year or two. Yah some guys will get to scratch on their own or whatever-But that is not a reason to advise it for everyone.

You have nothing to support your claim.

You are saying that you can not only do the same job as people who do this for their lives,people who spend 40+ hours per week thinking about this stuff-you are saying you can do it BETTER teaching yourself.

I am with the others who have said this is a stupid opinion.-You are a 17. Maybe you will be the one in 10,000 who get to scratch on their own-But odds are you will not.

[iacas]

@knott, all you're doing at this point is saying "I can help myself the most by not taking lessons" or some variation of that. It's not adding anything to the discussion, as you're not even replying to the content of the points raised against you.

Like I and others have said:

• PGA Tour players have instructors. If "teaching yourself" was the best thing, they would do that. They'd not only save money on the instruction, they'd make more since they'd be doing what's "best" for them.
• Many people, most with handicaps lower than your own, have told you the value of instruction.
• Feel ain't real. That's one of the strongest arguments against teaching yourself. Even the instructors I know see other instructors. @mvmac knows as much about the golf swing as anyone… and gets regular instruction.
• Good instructors spend their lives learning about the golf swing. We spend thousands of dollars per year on equipment, continuing education, etc. It's our livelihood. You do not know what we know, and likely never will unless you quit your job and become a full-time instructor. And even then you'll be years or decades behind in the experience side of what you can learn and know.

Like I've said, I have absolutely no problem if you want to teach yourself, for whatever reason (you think it's fun, you want to save the $, it's a challenge, whatever…), but it's pure idiocy to suggest that is the "best" way for all golfers, or even most golfers, or even many golfers to get better the fastest.

It's not. There's nothing to support that statement, including even nearly completely worthless anecdotal personal evidence.

So just stop. We get it. You think golfers should teach themselves after they understand a few basics.

And most everyone else thinks that's nuts.

[knott]

17 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

You seem to think that if you take a few opportunities to learn a little bit to get you started-That you can do the job others train their whole lives for and who do this for a living.

So what do you do-And are you comfortable with someone else saying that they can do it after you teach them for a few hours and they watch a few YouTube videos?

Some means plural-The only person saying that is you.

There is no evidence to support your claim.-PGA Tour players by and large have instructors and get instruction. The better the player the more likely it is that they got instruction-And that they will get instruction in the next year or two. Yah some guys will get to scratch on their own or whatever-But that is not a reason to advise it for everyone.

You have nothing to support your claim.

You are saying that you can not only do the same job as people who do this for their lives,people who spend 40+ hours per week thinking about this stuff-you are saying you can do it BETTER teaching yourself.

I am with the others who have said this is a stupid opinion.-You are a 17. Maybe you will be the one in 10,000 who get to scratch on their own-But odds are you will not.

There is several here just some posts up saying they can teach themselves after some point. Its just not me apparently. 

 

[Vespidae]

23 minutes ago, knott said:

There is several here just some posts up saying they can teach themselves after some point. Its just not me apparently. 

I suppose it depends on your definition of success. The ranges are full of people teaching themselves. 

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, knott said:

There is several here just some posts up saying they can teach themselves after some point. Its just not me apparently. 

This is not accurate in two ways.

First, it's a bit of goalpost shifting. Anyone "can" teach themselves, or at least try to. What's being discussed is whether this is the best course of action, like you've said.

Second, it's not accurate even on its face:

@Billy Z asked the question. @FlyingAce has taken lessons for years. @dennyjones lessons. @Piz lessons. @klineka lessons. @Bonvivant is going to. @Darkfrog lessons. @Slim_Pivot lessons. @Grizvok about to. @GolfLug lessons. @ShawnSum lessons. @billchao lessons. @David in FL has taken one lesson, ever, because he doesn't enjoy them. But I'm pretty sure he wouldn't advocate anything like what you're saying if someone wanted to get better the fastest. @ChetlovesMer "tons of lessons." @Vespidae lessons. @BC-to-MI plans to start getting lessons after being self-taught to 9.7. @nevets88 lessons. @gbogey lessons. @Mr22putt no lessons except from his dad, but he hasn't commented on whether he'd recommend that for someone else looking to play better. @boogielicious lessons. Then you join in and make a bunch of posts… @Billy Z adds "it's important to find an instructor" (slightly paraphrased). @Patch lessons. @pganapathy lessons.

So out of all the names listed there, only two people say that for themselves they've taken a few lessons or less, and neither of those two people commented to say what they would recommend for others or what they think is best in general. They simply said that they didn't take lessons for themselves.

Again, what you choose to do for yourself is fine. I don't care.

But you can't support the idea that it's "best" or that golfers can "help themselves the most" by teaching themselves.

And until you have something to support this claim… stop posting in the topic so that others can comment.

[David in FL]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

This is not accurate in two ways.

First, it's a bit of goalpost shifting. Anyone "can" teach themselves, or at least try to. What's being discussed is whether this is the best course of action, like you've said.

Second, it's not accurate even on its face:

@Billy Z asked the question. @FlyingAce has taken lessons for years. @dennyjones lessons. @Piz lessons. @klineka lessons. @Bonvivant is going to. @Darkfrog lessons. @Slim_Pivot lessons. @Grizvok about to. @GolfLug lessons. @ShawnSum lessons. @billchao lessons. @David in FL has taken one lesson, ever, because he doesn't enjoy them. But I'm pretty sure he wouldn't advocate anything like what you're saying if someone wanted to get better the fastest. @ChetlovesMer "tons of lessons." @Vespidae lessons. @BC-to-MI plans to start getting lessons after being self-taught to 9.7. @nevets88 lessons. @gbogey lessons. @Mr22putt no lessons except from his dad, but he hasn't commented on whether he'd recommend that for someone else looking to play better. @boogielicious lessons. Then you join in and make a bunch of posts… @Billy Z adds "it's important to find an instructor" (slightly paraphrased). @Patch lessons. @pganapathy lessons.

So out of all the names listed there, only two people say that for themselves they've taken a few lessons or less, and neither of those two people commented to say what they would recommend for others or what they think is best in general. They simply said that they didn't take lessons for themselves.

Again, what you choose to do for yourself is fine. I don't care.

But you can't support the idea that it's "best" or that golfers can "help themselves the most" by teaching themselves.

And until you have something to support this claim… stop posting in the topic so that others can comment.

I would absolutely recommend lessons for anyone.  I have no doubt whatsoever that had I had lessons, and practiced with intent, that I would be a much better player than I am.  
 

It’s also worth noting that I began playing back in the 60s. The availability of quality instruction was very limited back then. These days just about anyone willing to make the effort can find a good instructor, whether in person or even online.  

[David in FL]

2 hours ago, knott said:

Some believe after a certain point you can help yourself the most. 

 

My own experience notwithstanding, please don’t put me in that camp.
 

 

[knott]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

This is not accurate in two ways.

First, it's a bit of goalpost shifting. Anyone "can" teach themselves, or at least try to. What's being discussed is whether this is the best course of action, like you've said.

Second, it's not accurate even on its face:

@Billy Z asked the question. @FlyingAce has taken lessons for years. @dennyjones lessons. @Piz lessons. @klineka lessons. @Bonvivant is going to. @Darkfrog lessons. @Slim_Pivot lessons. @Grizvok about to. @GolfLug lessons. @ShawnSum lessons. @billchao lessons. @David in FL has taken one lesson, ever, because he doesn't enjoy them. But I'm pretty sure he wouldn't advocate anything like what you're saying if someone wanted to get better the fastest. @ChetlovesMer "tons of lessons." @Vespidae lessons. @BC-to-MI plans to start getting lessons after being self-taught to 9.7. @nevets88 lessons. @gbogey lessons. @Mr22putt no lessons except from his dad, but he hasn't commented on whether he'd recommend that for someone else looking to play better. @boogielicious lessons. Then you join in and make a bunch of posts… @Billy Z adds "it's important to find an instructor" (slightly paraphrased). @Patch lessons. @pganapathy lessons.

So out of all the names listed there, only two people say that for themselves they've taken a few lessons or less, and neither of those two people commented to say what they would recommend for others or what they think is best in general. They simply said that they didn't take lessons for themselves.

Again, what you choose to do for yourself is fine. I don't care.

But you can't support the idea that it's "best" or that golfers can "help themselves the most" by teaching themselves.

And until you have something to support this claim… stop posting in the topic so that others can comment.

No it´s you and others that done the goalpost shifting. I said after learning the basics which you translated to no instruction at all. But this is all cleared up and dusted by now.  Now you accuse me of changing goalposts when you where the primary offender in this regard?

Best and best I am just saying lessons is not necessary at all at some point to improve your game once you know enough I would never recommend anyone to do one or the another. You just have to respect different opinions then yours and don´t suggest people stop posting them... 

[Grizvok]

1 minute ago, knott said:

No it´s you and others that done the goalpost shifting. I said after learning the basics which you translated to no instruction at all. But this is all cleared up and dusted by now.  Now you accuse me of changing goalposts when you where the primary offender in this regard?

Best and best I am just saying lessons is not necessary at all at some point to improve your game once you know enough I would never recommend anyone to do one or the another. You just have to respect different opinions then yours and don´t suggest people stop posting them... 

It borders on delusion to claim “I can teach myself as well as or better than a good golf professional could.”