Should Club Manufacturers Have to Standardize Loft?

[GolfLug]

Yeah, quit worrying. 

I think it boils down to the fact that some folks (maybe like the angry fella in OP) take it as an insult to their intelligence that manufacturers try to sell the latest GI/SGI iron as 'longer' by claiming better technology but in their eyes all they are doing you is selling a 5 iron in the 'name' of a 7 iron.  

Meh..whatever. Like Buddha says 'know and be still'..

 

 

[Slim_Pivot]

My issue with standardized is...

In the last 5 years I’ve heard analysts, players, experts who know better than me say, the 8 has the loft of a 7...but it behaves like an 8 iron. How high it goes, stopping power etc.

So are we being tricked or does it behave like an 8?

If it does behave like an 8. That is a jump in improvement. If lofts were standardized...they could not have made their 7 into an 8 and we would be stuck with an inferior product.

Basically I don’t want to put the “creative minds” and innovators in a box. Even if it puts me at risk of getting tricked.

[billchao]

I thought this was going to be another one of those threads where the OP complains about the loft of modern irons and I thought, "here we go again, gotta explain how club design works for the umpteenth time." Boy was I pleasantly surprised 😀

4 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Maybe the number on the bottom of the club refers to the height you hit it, not the distance you hit it???????

Manufacturers designate a "7 iron" based on the launch characteristics of the club. A GI 7i launches the ball around 16° or whatever, just like a traditional 7i does. The GI 7i goes farther because the loft is stronger which reduces spin, but both clubs are designed to hit the same peak height. Spin is not as important as people tend to think it is because the descent angle on the GI club allows the ball to land softly and hold the green.

The extra distance is a big marketing point for sure, but don't get caught up in the hype. Just think of it as an added bonus. Modern irons are both longer and more forgiving than their traditional counterparts and that's a good thing. I have never figured out why people get so upset about it.

[Vinsk]

Quit worrying. I agree with Bill. Now I guess those real low hcp golfers can get annoyed with gaps being harder to define with the higher numbered clubs but I think they all manage to figure it out. And I don’t care if my new 7i has 30* and flies 180yds. I’ll work with my new set and find my expected distances for that set and so be it. I don’t con myself into thinking my ball striking mechanics  have  dramatically improved because my new 7i shot is 10-20yds farther than my old 7i. 

[gbogey]

I don't think the lofts are as much of a concern as the club lengths.  Most iron sets are .5" longer than my 5 year old irons.  Probably doesn't make a ton of difference until you get to 5i or 6i, but those will definitely be harder to hit with extra length.

[Buckeyebowman]

You might as well ask shaft manufacturers to standardize flex ratings! It's been tried. It failed miserably! 

[Jbeebs1]

This thread is very refreshing. I am also exhausted by all the Rogue X iron haters. Probably most of them have hybrids in their bag, 25 to 30 years ago people had the exact same opinion on them! The game is so progressive in regards to equipment that soon as you buy something, something new comes along. I, for one, really enjoy the new irons and have no problem gapping them. Numbers are numbers, outcome is outcome. Remember, the end goal is what gets you from tee to green in the least amount of strokes as possible!

[surfmonkey89]

I'm in the process of getting fitted for the first time in my life, and at this point it's looking like I'm going with Rogue X.

As part of all this, I've been doing a ton of research - man, things sure have changed in the last decade with all of the data/analytics, in a good way. My main takeaway wrt to this issue is that it's pointless to ask someone what club they hit. Clubs vary drastically between manufacturers, and more importantly player abilities. Just figure out what *you* hit, and don't worry about everyone else, because it an apples-to-apples comparison is basically impossible.

Edited May 9, 2019 by surfmonkey89

[onthehunt526]

First of all jacking lofts in SGI irons is absolutely nothing new. It's been happening for decades now, and they won't stop until they finally figure out hey you can't make a 36° club and call it a PW (actually you can).

The reason all "7"-irons are "7"-irons is simple. Total clubhead weight. All 7-iron heads weigh approximately 270 grams. Whether it's a Titleist 718 MB at 35° or an AP1 at 30° they are both 7-irons. The Rogue X 7-iron is 27.5° the Apex MB is 34°. The total clubhead weight of those 2 7-irons is almost exactly the same. The reason the Rogue X has 6.5° less of loft is very simple.

The vertical CG in the Rogue X is .07 inches lower and .09 inches further back.

Say the VCOG and RCOG were the same. Then the lofts could be the same. But if a Rogue X had a 34° 7-iron, the ball would just balloon, spin too much, and go nowhere. Ping had this problem with the Eye 2s. Super Game Improvement irons, that were super forgiving, but because of their traditional lofts, were actually slightly shorter than the competitor's blades. They sort of fixed it with slightly stronger lofts in the Eye 2+ series, but not to the extent of now.

Let's face it most SGI 7-irons are 28-30° GI 30-32°, Players 34-35° they're all kind of close for each category but not standardized. But saying that all "7-irons" regardless of which type of player they are aimed at, should be the same is ludicrous. Irons in each segment (I.e. SGI, GI, Players) are all very close to each other in loft.

So you shouldn't compare an SGI loft to a Players loft. That is like comparing apples to oranges. In our irons case they're both 7-irons but they are completely different 7-irons. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by onthehunt526

[onthehunt526]

On 3/4/2019 at 6:41 PM, billchao said:

I thought this was going to be another one of those threads where the OP complains about the loft of modern irons and I thought, "here we go again, gotta explain how club design works for the umpteenth time." Boy was I pleasantly surprised 😀

Manufacturers designate a "7 iron" based on the launch characteristics of the club. A GI 7i launches the ball around 16° or whatever, just like a traditional 7i does. The GI 7i goes farther because the loft is stronger which reduces spin, but both clubs are designed to hit the same peak height. Spin is not as important as people tend to think it is because the descent angle on the GI club allows the ball to land softly and hold the green.

The extra distance is a big marketing point for sure, but don't get caught up in the hype. Just think of it as an added bonus. Modern irons are both longer and more forgiving than their traditional counterparts and that's a good thing. I have never figured out why people get so upset about it.

Launch angle? Yeah, that is correct. The total clubhead weight is still about the same on all "7-irons".

[Ty_Webb]

Manufacturers should be allowed to call the clubs whatever they like. If someone wants to come out and name their clubs Tom, dick, Harry, Fred, arthur, George, frank, Geoff and Colin they can do so. 

[Patch]

Manufacturers can do anything they want with their clubs. However, what I would like to see is is the loft of the club stamp on it. 

[David in FL]

They’re already standardized.

My 36° iron has the same loft as your 36° iron...

[onthehunt526]

41 minutes ago, David in FL said:

They’re already standardized.

My 36° iron has the same loft as your 36° iron...

I don't know if that was what the OP was getting at.

50 years ago lofts were pretty damn standard, yeah there was an oddball club or two that probably was out of the normal

1970 Standard lofts

1-wood: 11-12°

2-wood: 14°

3-wood: 17°

4-wood: 19°

5-wood: 21°

1-iron: 17°

2-iron: 20°

3-iron: 23°

4-iron: 27°

5-iron: 31°

6-iron: 35°

7-iron: 39°

8-iron: 43°

9-iron: 47°

Pitching wedge: 51°

Sand wedge: 56°

Now basically move every iron from 3-iron through pitching wedge up 2 clubs, and add two gap wedges for the 1970 9-iron and PW and you have Titleist AP1 iron specs (though I don't think they make a 3-iron anymore). 

The main reason the 1 and 2 irons are dead are because they're really your 3 and 4 irons. If you've ever played the older irons you know how damn heavy they were, they probably had a swingweight of about D8 or so. 

Like I said, in a previous post in this thread, lofts are pretty standard in the different categories of irons. Most SGI 7-irons are 28°-30°, GI 30-32°, Players cavities 33-34°, Players blades 34°-35°. If you compare say a P-730 or P-7TW to a Titleist 718 MB, Or a Mizuno MP-18 blade, they're all within 1° of each other. Or a Titleist AP1, Callaway Rogue, TaylorMade M5, or Mizuno JPX-919 there all within 1-2° of one another, Or a TaylorMade M6, Callaway Rogue X, or Tour Edge Exotics EXS they are all within 1-2° of each other. You have to realize that when comparing iron lofts, You cannot compare an SGI loft to a Players loft. It just doesn't work that way. Each iron is designed for a different segment of golfers, the higher handicap golfer needs perimeter weighting, lower VCOG, and deeper RCOG to get the ball airborne. A mid-handicap probably needs a little less help with that. At lower handicaps we're looking to work the ball both ways (except me I don't really care about shaping it unless I have to, I'm just worried about getting it on the green as close to the hole as safe to do so, I don't care how it gets there)

Now you'd think that 5/64" of an inch doesn't make that much of a difference in launch angle. Yeah it does. Why? Because blades don't have as much face height as an SGI, and have much shorter blade length. Have you ever put an SGI iron next to a blade of the same number? The SGI iron is huge in comparison. I mean massive. So in comparison. It is much lower in the face than in a blade. Is it only 5/64"? Yes. The massive size of the SGI makes it effectively much lower. Almost all SGI irons VCOG is below the center of the ball (.84 inches). Where almost all blades are above the center of the ball.

Now do you think 5/64" doesn't make a difference? That's 5/64" difference in VCOG and 3/32" difference in RCOG is why an SGI 7-iron has to have less loft than a blade. I used to hate it now that I understand the physics of it. I accept it's premise. That is your 6.5° difference in loft. The size of the clubhead (not the total clubhead weight, blade length and face height), the VCOG and RCOG.

Most of this information I have provided is readily available on the GolfWorks website. If you look up MPF ratings, the measurements for all the newer 6-iron heads is on there. It's very interesting looking at the actual numbers.

[David in FL]

14 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

I don't know if that was what the OP was getting at.

50 years ago lofts were pretty damn standard, yeah there was an oddball club or two that probably was out of the normal

1970 Standard lofts

1-wood: 11-12°

2-wood: 14°

3-wood: 17°

4-wood: 19°

5-wood: 21°

1-iron: 17°

2-iron: 20°

3-iron: 23°

4-iron: 27°

5-iron: 31°

6-iron: 35°

7-iron: 39°

8-iron: 43°

9-iron: 47°

Pitching wedge: 51°

Sand wedge: 56°

Now basically move every iron from 3-iron through pitching wedge up 2 clubs, and add two gap wedges for the 1970 9-iron and PW and you have Titleist AP1 iron specs (though I don't think they make a 3-iron anymore). 

The main reason the 1 and 2 irons are dead are because they're really your 3 and 4 irons. If you've ever played the older irons you know how damn heavy they were, they probably had a swingweight of about D8 or so. 

Like I said, in a previous post in this thread, lofts are pretty standard in the different categories of irons. Most SGI 7-irons are 28°-30°, GI 30-32°, Players cavities 33-34°, Players blades 34°-35°. If you compare say a P-730 or P-7TW to a Titleist 718 MB, Or a Mizuno MP-18 blade, they're all within 1° of each other. Or a Titleist AP1, Callaway Rogue, TaylorMade M5, or Mizuno JPX-919 there all within 1-2° of one another, Or a TaylorMade M6, Callaway Rogue X, or Tour Edge Exotics EXS they are all within 1-2° of each other. You have to realize that when comparing iron lofts, You cannot compare an SGI loft to a Players loft. It just doesn't work that way. Each iron is designed for a different segment of golfers, the higher handicap golfer needs perimeter weighting, lower VCOG, and deeper RCOG to get the ball airborne. A mid-handicap probably needs a little less help with that. At lower handicaps we're looking to work the ball both ways (except me I don't really care about shaping it unless I have to, I'm just worried about getting it on the green as close to the hole as safe to do so, I don't care how it gets there)

Now you'd think that 5/64" of an inch doesn't make that much of a difference in launch angle. Yeah it does. Why? Because blades don't have as much face height as an SGI, and have much shorter blade length. Have you ever put an SGI iron next to a blade of the same number? The SGI iron is huge in comparison. I mean massive. So in comparison. It is much lower in the face than in a blade. Is it only 5/64"? Yes. The massive size of the SGI makes it effectively much lower. Almost all SGI irons VCOG is below the center of the ball (.84 inches). Where almost all blades are above the center of the ball.

Now do you think 5/64" doesn't make a difference? That's 5/64" difference in VCOG and 3/32" difference in RCOG is why an SGI 7-iron has to have less loft than a blade. I used to hate it now that I understand the physics of it. I accept it's premise. That is your 6.5° difference in loft. The size of the clubhead (not the total clubhead weight, blade length and face height), the VCOG and RCOG.

Most of this information I have provided is readily available on the GolfWorks website. If you look up MPF ratings, the measurements for all the newer 6-iron heads is on there. It's very interesting looking at the actual numbers.

I understand. And yet 36° is still 36° is 36°… It doesn’t matter what number is on the sole of the club

[saevel25]

It's simple math. You have 14 clubs in your bag. People feel like they are buying an extra club because sets use to end with a PW before the SW and LW. Yet they don't realize they lose the 3 iron that was typical. 

In the end, people are buying 14 clubs. There is not change. The labels mean nothing. They could label them

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, J, I 

As long as they have proper gaps and fit my game I can play golf. 

[onthehunt526]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

It's simple math. You have 14 clubs in your bag. People feel like they are buying an extra club because sets use to end with a PW before the SW and LW. Yet they don't realize they lose the 3 iron that was typical. 

In the end, people are buying 14 clubs. There is not change. The labels mean nothing. They could label them

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, J, I 

As long as they have proper gaps and fit my game I can play golf. 

The point here that should've been made in the beginning. Most OEMs don't stick you with 4-PW, GW as your iron set. (or 3-PW in player's irons). You can honestly these days buy your set however you want it, you'd just order it directly from the manufacturer. So if you wanted say 6-PW, GW you could get it, or every iron in the set you can get it, or 7-PW, GW. Most OEMs are pretty good about custom set orders, some will require you to buy four or five consecutive irons in a set. Other companies like Titleist and Ping don't care if you order just one. In this day and age, people complaining about iron lofts being jacked is just getting old.

What my point is and will continue to be is: Different iron designs are marketed at different skill level golfers. The irons for higher handicaps have lower and deeper CG, so in order to counteract the ballooning launch and get it to the proper window, the loft has to be lowered. Game-improvement irons have a slightly higher and more forward CG, their lofts don't need to be lowered as much, and Players clubs have the highest and most forward CG so their lofts usually are static.

With all of the information and extra typing I've done. STATIC LOFT doesn't matter, DYNAMIC LOFT, LAUNCH ANGLE and DESCENT ANGLE do. 

[Hardspoon]

If anything was to be standardized I would think it would be shaft length, rather than loft.