How Much Better does Online Instruction Have to Be?

This post-[quote name="Ernest Jones" url="/t/77970/my-swing-firedragon76/54#post_1077507"] Best of luck and I wish you well. Feel free to check in with us periodically as you work with your pro. I hope you luck into finding a good pro but I'm willing to bet a box of donuts that the pro you find won't be anywhere near as good as the people that have tried to help you on this site. In any case, best of luck and God speed. :-)[/quote] Got me to wondering how much better online instruction had to be to compensate for the fact that youre not online. Now I like online teaching-Though I dont do much I see what Mike/Erik and others have done here and other online instruction things-and obviously there are some things that you almost have to do in person or even some people who have to be physically put in positions to get them. But not all, not even most probably. So how much better does online instruction have to be to work?-In general, I mean. Say an Instructor in person is a C instructor. Does online instruction mean you have to be a B instructor to be as good? In general again-Some things you can convey online just fine. Or maybe we should look at it as out of 10. If someone is an average instructor, a 5.5 or something, do you have to be a 7.0 online to make up for the lack of in-person? A 6? A 9? What do you think? Mike and Erik have made videos and pictures so Im not just talking about text, just basically-'How much better do you have to be when you can't physically be with the student but can do anything else?'

I voted "you have to be significantly better online".

However, like @FireDragon76 , I don't communicate very well. I learn better by feel .

Mike and Dana taught me the three first keys at a personal level, and I have absorbed as much as I can from this site learning little tidbits from comments made here and there.

One such comment from @Mr. Desmond me for so long (about the "hammer" feel), but I couldn't figure out how to apply it. It was not until about a couple weeks before I posted my 3i and 4i shots a couple months ago that I actually knew what impact should feel like . Now that I do, I can't forget it. It was like a golf epiphany. Which took 5 personal lessons from Mike and Dana and continuous comments on my videos from Mike for me to finally get it. It took me a year to finally "click". That's just for a barely adequate Key 1.

If Mike was not able to remember all my swing faults, and be able to interpret them over the internet there would be no way I could improve.

It takes really good communications skills and a good memory to be able to teach on line. It's much harder than watching someone swing in real time, where you can see every swing they make and not just snippets of their best swings. Let's face it, if someone is going to post a video ego usually has them post their best ones so they don't look as "foolish".

I think maybe a clear definition of what the scale means would be in order. I think a good instructor would be just as good in either case because they use video etc., even when instructing in person. I believe the difference is more student dependent.

BTW, if somehow it is somewhat objectively defined that an particular instructor is not that good then I would not entrust my swing to them anyway. Online or in person. I mean I would be literally incapable of bringing myself to trust what they are instructing if I have a slightest doubt.

To summarize, IMO, not sure there would be level difference that would allow them to be more adept to one vs. the other medium.

An instructor is either good or he is not.  I don't see how being online changes that.

I think a better discussion would be the pros and cons of online vs. in person.

Obviously there are some compelling advantages to being in person like instant feedback even from one swing to the next.  And, the instructors ability to put his hands on the student and literally put them in a position.

I had an example of my instructor telling me to make a fuller turn.  So I tried and got nowhere near enough.  He had me try again and again, physically put me in the position and I finally got how far was far enough.  This all happened in a coulple of minutes.

I wouldn't take lessons, in person or online, if there wasn't video analysis.

Online advantages... Convenience, price. The price difference is really huge if you're referring to evolvr.   I'll know more once I start my evolvr lessons.

Voted "significantly better". Your communication skills, in particular, certainly need to be better

I voted significantly better.  It has got to be harder for both sides.

I voted significantly better. That said,  I don't know how well it would work out just using videos, and written instruction. Also a student, taking online lessons has to be significantly better at interpreting those lessons. Both, the  instructor, and the student need to be on the same page. If they are not, then they are wasting each others' time.

Yes, there is plenty of good golf swing information available online, but I don't think it will ever replace quality, one on one, in person, instruction.

Personally I like books by the older instructors due to the ease understanding they used in their writing. After that there is some good stuff available on You Tube. I have been using You Tube for my green reading stuff. This site (TST) has some really good info available also. I have read and tried some of the info available on here. .

I agree that there needs to be some level of personal interaction, but I'm not 100% sure that it's absolutely required. Even in my case I was taught the motions in person, but still needed to learn the feel on my own. I'm pretty confident seeing someone weekly would not have been better.

I think this is the key. Some instructors are flat-out bad teachers. I'm not even sure that in-person instructors need to be better. I've only had 3 evolvr lessons, but I plan on subscribing again soon for at least a year. I think my three lessons have been just as effective as the couple of in-person lessons I've had for two reasons - 1. They made me focus on one or two primary issues, 2. They required me to take more responsibility for my improvement. I think if you had the same, good instructor, and you took online vs. in-person lessons, online might be more effective for the two reasons I listed. How many people do you know work with an instructor on a regular basis and think it will improve them if they talk about 20 things they're doing wrong, get "corrected" during the lesson, spend an hour after it hitting balls with a full swing, and then come back in a week to drop $50+ more and get marginal improvement? Unless you have a good, specific long-term plan with an instructor, it can be a very inefficient way to learn. Many people sign up with no idea what that needs to be.

I believe that it is ENTIRELY dependent on the type of student.

If you are a good student, then I believe that the pros of the online lessons at least equal the cons.

The biggest "pro" is that I can refer back to my lesson video as often as I need to see if I can pick up more things or understand it better.  With an in person lesson, I only have memory and notes I quickly jotted down as I left.

The biggest "con" is, obviously, that you're not interacting in real time.  For a decent student, all that really means, IMO, is one lesson might take two lessons.  You send in a video, he sends back the lesson with the drill, you send in a second video having done the drill and then get back a second lesson to find out that you almost had it, but this body part was in the wrong place.  Do it like this.

That type of thing can occur in a matter of minutes in a live lesson. However, in the long run, I don't think that is a big deal, because most things take a while to "master."  So what if it takes my instructor an extra week to explain the drill to me when I'm going to be working on it for 4 months anyway?

If you are a bad student , then it makes no difference.  You aren't going to properly practice what you are given anyway, so who cares how you got it?

The third type of student I'm picturing is one that just doesn't quite have the ability translate a video into the drill on his own.  He needs the hands on instructor to physically form him into the positions his body needs to hit.  Videos won't do it, mirrors won't do it, only hands.  But that guy would get very little out of a video lesson regardless of how good the instructor is.

This is why I vote B - "the same." :)

As I scrolled though these posts, my thoughts were having the ability to record while having live interactions as @Golfingdad ing the biggest con.

With online - live stream lesson a possibility, both the instructor and students would be able to review and communicate during and at a later time.

This would enhance the opportunities for both instructor and students to build a coaching type relation.

Most golfers would benefit and become a better player when having a coach who has understandings of their abilities and needs.

Live stream could create another avenue for instructor's and possible potential greater revenues.

Club Rat

Voted ...significantly better.

But...I think it depends on the student. I.e...is he or she someone that can learn by just watching a video, or does he or she not really get it  watching a video compared to having an instructor teaching in person..?

For me, I get some things by watching, and some things I need to have an instructor actually show me what they mean, I know..I'm slow..lol

And, what about the student, are they the type that's really serious, or looking for a quick fix..?

I've seen some video's where the teacher covers things either to fast, or doesn't explain the technique enough. Others were pretty good.

Also, if a person has disabilities and can't do certain moves, a video can't show them an alternative, or give advice on how to maybe do the move with exercises over time. Which is my case, so communication is very important. I however, could not rely solely on learning from online video's.

Good thread..Phil..

How does an online lesson work? For example I don't have access to a video camera so how would that work with an online lesson? Do you give access to particular lessons that can be viewed and practiced? Would that even work if you can't see the progress? May be wrong thread for this but was intrigued by the online lesson

Without access to a video camera it is impossible to do an online lesson, but even an iPhone 4 would do! so..

To expand a tad on the previous answer:  You video your own swing (usually once face on and once down the line) and upload it to your instructor.  A few days to a week later, you get a personalized lesson (4-8 minutes long) showing your swing alongside one of your old swings, or a pro, or the instructor doing a drill, etc, along with his voiceover explaining what you need to work on for the next few weeks.

The best part about online lessons (Evolvr specifically) is that you take as little or as much time as required to work on that piece and whenever you're ready, send in another video and find out whats next. :)