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Mr Puddle

Driving for Show, Putting for Dough, or Is It?

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21 hours ago, shanksalot said:

If this premise is "set in stone" how much data was used to make it so? There are some 50-60 million golfers in the world and unless data from at least half that many is used I don't see how anyone can say it is set in stone. If something is set in stone in is completely decided and can not be changed. So is this the case because I don't think that is the case. These is not enough info to support this premise is "set in stone." 

No. I've forgotten most of what I learned about statistics, but what I do know is that the sample size required to get a 95% confidence level and a low margin of error is very small on large populations. I tried some online calculators, which suggested I need around 10 000 samples to gain a 95% confidence level and 1% margin of error.

If you don't understand statistics, I can see how it can be interpreted as unreliable.

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I've recently taken up the game again after a 6-year layoff. I am on the side of driving and approach are the biggest factors for high handicappers (did not break 100 in my comeback round.) Errant tee shots plus duffed approaches were what did me in. My chipping, pitching, and putting were above average. Only 2 holes were affected by a bad short game. 

I had 3 pars on the back nine once I got more familiar with what I was doing wrong that day (5 days ago.) When I scored par, it was always due to the same formula. Drive in fairway, approach on the green or right next to it, plus one or 2-putt for par. I practice 3 times for every round played. This time around, I'm going to get it together and pass my previous 21.4 index. 

My point being that my short game portion of my practice sessions does help my game, but the bigger issue is ball striking. Specifically, lack of consistently quality ball striking. You can't score if you're taking penalty strokes and duffing shots before you even get to the green or within short game range. 

Edited by don28

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On 6/29/2019 at 3:29 PM, trainsmokegolf said:

Putting is critical as well,  there are a lot of golfers out there who confirm that working hard on their short game yields great results

Still waiting for you to provide sources/data that supports your point of view.

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I have been working on my game and playing well. It is amazing how much better I feel about my putting when I am averaging <30' on my approaches and missing in good spots.

I can shoot 75 with poor putting, I can break 80 with an average short game but if I am wild off the tee and can't control the approach then 80 is a challenge.

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1 hour ago, klineka said:

Still waiting for you to provide sources/data that supports your point of view.

There's nothing wrong with that exact statement. Putting also matters, and working on short game and putting is the easiest and quickest way to lower your scores because it's a slower and more controlled swing. That still doesn't mean it's more important than the long game, but that improving in that area is easier.

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Just now, Zeph said:

There's nothing wrong with that exact statement. Putting also matters, and working on short game and putting is the easiest and quickest way to lower your scores because it's a slower and more controlled swing. That still doesn't mean it's more important than the long game, but that improving in that area is easier.

Yup I completely agree with that, no issue there.

It was more of the fact that @trainsmokegolf continues to comment on the thread with other thoughts and statements like this

On 6/29/2019 at 3:12 PM, trainsmokegolf said:

just focus on cherry picked studies. 

while ignoring the multiple requests for him to back up his point of view with facts/studies.

niv shrug idk GIF by Product Hunt

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fun stuff - we've rehashed a crap load of old false assumptions and cliches in this one thread - another very recent thread actually showed the words "topspin", etc.  It shows how important it is to revisit these topics for new site members.  I advise patience, these discussions will make people better players, not just revalidate those of us who already have experienced the learning.

For the humor and enjoyment of our long standing members, I'd like to once again offer this trip down memory lane (perspective in that, it certainly can be a more painful thread than it seems.....) 😛

2019-01-04 13_36_51-Cary Schoen and The Lower Body Lie That Is Devastating Golf (Troll Thread) - Pag.jpg

Edited by rehmwa

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1 hour ago, klineka said:

Yup I completely agree with that, no issue there.

It was more of the fact that @trainsmokegolf continues to comment on the thread with other thoughts and statements like this

while ignoring the multiple requests for him to back up his point of view with facts/studies.

niv shrug idk GIF by Product Hunt

He will continue to ignore such requests. People with that mindset simply don’t care. They have their long standing flawed idea and it’s just easier to stick with it than to jump into the realm of learning something new. Again it’s so often shown here;

‘You can’t reason somebody out of something they weren’t reasoned into.’

He’s a classic example.

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On 6/28/2019 at 1:32 PM, Patch said:

Another way to look at it, from the tour pros' and audience's entertainment perspective. 

"Drive for show". Folks love the pros "showing" them those long, some what accurate drives. Everyone loves to see  a 300+ yard drive. Even if it lands in the next county. A "wow look at that one" moment. 

"Putt for dough" pretty much (entertainingly) says if the pro putts well, they have a good chance at getting a larger pay check that week. If they putt poorly, below their average, even after those stroke saving drives, and approaches, the chances of getting a more decent pay day that week, are much slimmer. 

Exactly. There's Long Drive Championships because it puts on a good show. It's just a silly saying. Good Putting Championship? Meh...

Edited by AlDena

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4 hours ago, AlDena said:

Exactly. There's Long Drive Championships because it puts on a good show. It's just a silly saying. Good Putting Championship? Meh...

https://www.msop.com/

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A little late to the discussion, but I have some thoughts...

On 6/28/2019 at 10:37 AM, edomingox said:

And no, I don't think 7 footers are made 80% of the time.  I believe 6 footers are close to the 50% mark with the pros.

I'm not saying that driving is not critical.  Just like I'm sure you wouldn't say that putting isn't critical.  I just don't think that driving is as critical as putting could be.  And again, we can argue till the cows come home.  But here are some reason I work on putting more:

Bad driving can be more detrimental than poor putting on paper, given that you can drive it into hazard and all.  Though with putting, you don't have wind, hazards, water, sand, etc., to really factor in your shot as much, but you do need to know which way the break goes.   

If you hit every green in regulation and 2 putted, that would be 36 putts.  On a Par 72, that is 50% of your score.  Using these numbers, I would say you are more likely to knock strokes off of putting than anything else.

Having confidence in your putter can also relieve the pressure from the rest of your game.  I would rather face an opponent who lost confidence in his putter rather than his driver.

I have Dave Pelz's Putting Bible.  I don't think he makes a Driving Bible.   

Tiger Woods made more putts at 10 feet to stay with the leaders and missed fairways on a regular basis.  Tiger lead in putting during his 2003-2008 season.

Putting is also the easiest aspect to improve upon.  If you can eliminate all 3 putts, you can save on average about 3-4 strokes per round.  I am more likely to drive into a hazard more times than I am making 3 putts.  This tells me that my putting practice is much better than driving.  Because I do not practice my driving at all.  I mainly practice putting and wedge shots. 

If you are playing a guy for money, would you be more afraid of a guy who drives it long, or sinks all his 5 foot putts?

Would you rather miss every fairway or miss every line in your putt?

If you were to choose which of the shots to re-hit, would it be a drive or a putt?  And keep in mind with putts, that would include getting a re-hit with your 2nd putt.  If it were my choice, I would rather re-hit every putt I made than every drive I made.

I know that many of the questions may not be fairly comparable.  And to be honest, I believe that every aspect of the game (approach, putting, driving, chipping) are all nearly equally important.  I just think that some might just edge out the other when it comes to lowering scores the quickest and easiest way.

Okay where to start...just because putting is "half your score" doesn't mean its more important. I would guarantee you, the average golfer who shoots 100 doesn't take 50 putts. He loses a majority of his shots on the long game.

Dave Pelz is wrong a lot and his ideas about the importance of the short game and putting is in his own self interests to sell more books. Somewhere on this site there is a long list of Pelz falsities for your perusal.

I would much rather play someone struggling with the driver than with the putter. Even an extremely hot putter can't make a birdie when they are always putting for par. The same goes for the guy who makes all his 5 footers. If he can't hit the driver and the irons theres a good chance those 5 footers are for par and bogey. 

 

On 6/27/2019 at 10:27 AM, edomingox said:

I used to think that too.  So I worked on my chipping.  Then I realized during scrambles, we never chipped because someone always hit the green.  Then I noticed that most of our birdies came from sinking short to mid range putts.  Drives were unimportant.

I would rank the 4 skills as such:

  1. approach
  2. putting
  3. chipping
  4. driving

Out of all these skills, putting is the most convenient and easiest to practice.  Bobby Locke was dangerous because of his putting. 

Again, all of this is debatable and not set in stone.  These are just my priorities now, from experience.

If drives were unimportant how did you get to the green and close enough to make putts? I bet you didn't do it from 200+ yards away from behind the trees. 

Your experiences are skewed, badly.

On 6/29/2019 at 10:32 AM, trainsmokegolf said:

It's not clear cut.  I find golfers who are more diligent about working on their short game,  end up winning more matches and placing better. I think it breaks down to mental game,  "golf is 90 percent mental". When people are making their short putts,  it allieves their anxieties more than slightly improved ball striking.

Mental game again, good lord. :roll:

On 6/29/2019 at 1:29 PM, trainsmokegolf said:

I agree with you that ball striking is so critical,  totally agree. Putting is critical as well,  there are a lot of golfers out there who confirm that working hard on their short game yields great results,  so why hand waive that stuff and keep pointing to reading material. 

It's data based reading material that could help your game. Putting is important, just not as important as everything else.

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4 minutes ago, Zengolfer said:

Id say its more like, "drive for dough, putt for more dough".

Really, it's not about that.

It's "Full swing for dough, hot putting week for top five dough." Which isn't anywhere near as catchy.

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If driving distance is so high on the "to get low scores list", how come none of these long drive guys that can hit it 380/400+ yards cant even earn a spot on the lower tours? 

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10 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

If driving distance is so high on the "to get low scores list", how come none of these long drive guys that can hit it 380/400+ yards cant even earn a spot on the lower tours? 

'Cause they're the gorilla of the old joke who drives the ball 400 yards onto the green.  And then lines up their putt and knocks the ball another 400 yards.  "One trick gorillas".

Edited by Double Mocha Man

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