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Muirfield Out of Open Rota, Denies Women Membership


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2 hours ago, iacas said:

Bullshit. Why?

Men aren't allowed to join CURVES. I don't think white people can join the NAACP. Dumbasses can't join MENSA.

We discriminate ALL THE TIME. It's a private club. They get to make their own rules.

First, women play the course frequently. They're not excluded from playing.

Second, if you form a private club that isn't a "public service," you actually do get to make up your own rules, so long as they aren't illegal.

http://www.ladiesgolfclub.com

There's a club that's pretty equivalent, no? Women only, but men can play as guests. Can't be members, though.

I have no problem with that, either. They made a club of their own and are setting their own rules.

That doesn't mean the rules won't have consequences, like possibly not hosting a British Open. But let's stop with the PC crap, please.

P.S. I think a white person can join the NAACP, btw, but the point (I think) still stands…

 

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I could care less about their Men's only policy.  As as long as they do it legally, more power too them.  Maybe they don't care about hosting the Open Championship.  These clubs aren't looking for me to be a Member anyways.   Burning Tree in Bethesda MD is still a Men's Only course and I don't think this course along with the 10 or more in the world that are men or women only are bringing down civilization as we know it.  If a few rich guys (or gals) want to have their own course, who cares.  It would be one thing if weren't weren't other places to play, but as long as you have the money there are plenty of great clubs who want your money and would love to have you join.  Springfield is always looking to gather new members, of any gender or race.  We're even having a membership drive special right now.  Good time to join.  :-D

 

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"Private" groups can do whatever they like.  All women, all men, all golfers, all blue eyed, all cell phone pals, all whatever.  And they don't have tell anyone why either.  Right of free association is not moral or immoral - it just is.

But, they then need to own the consequences of how others react to it, or if they care.  As the R&A is also a private organization, they get to define whatever criteria they choose and also own the results of their choices.

Personally, I think Muirfield is being silly.  But I wouldn't want to take direct action just because I don't agree - my choice would be to not try and join them and it would stop there.  (But don't be surprised if a group of people try to force legislative action, and don't be surprised if the press this gets actually encourages a state or federal politician to try and force it).

This is a great example of how it should work - both groups are deciding what THEY need and they aren't forcing the other group to give up freedoms to align with them.  The extra example is also the necessary impact of one's own decisions is their own responsibility too.

If only individuals could understand this - we should makes our own decisions for ourselves and not butt in and intrude ourselves on others (respect they can make decisions for themselves just like us).  But with choice HAS to also include responsibility for our own choices too.  Can't have one without the other - or it doesn't really count.

Bill - 

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2 hours ago, iacas said:

Bullshit. Why?

There are economic consequences to this discrimination. Having access to these "elite institutions" has direct impact to one's earning potential. Every private club in the world touts the economic benefits one can accrue from being a member. If you're a member at Augusta, every golfer would want to be your friend. You can't ignore this. If men/women were truly equal, you're right it wouldn't matter, but the economic reality is men/women are not equal. In my opinion, the more advantaged group has to make allowances for the less advantage.

Though lots of white people are members/employees of the NAACP, they wouldn't be impacted economically if they weren't allowed to be. Remove the economic component and no one cares; no one complains the KKK does not allowing black people.

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3 hours ago, iacas said:

Bullshit. Why?

Men aren't allowed to join CURVES. I don't think white people can join the NAACP. Dumbasses can't join MENSA.

We discriminate ALL THE TIME. It's a private club. They get to make their own rules.

First, women play the course frequently. They're not excluded from playing.

Second, if you form a private club that isn't a "public service," you actually do get to make up your own rules, so long as they aren't illegal.

http://www.ladiesgolfclub.com

There's a club that's pretty equivalent, no? Women only, but men can play as guests. Can't be members, though.

I have no problem with that, either. They made a club of their own and are setting their own rules.

That doesn't mean the rules won't have consequences, like possibly not hosting a British Open. But let's stop with the PC crap, please.

P.S. I think a white person can join the NAACP, btw, but the point (I think) still stands…

 

Actually your whole rant doesn't stand...  Just because discrimination is a thing doesn't make it right.  

Woman across the world have to fight for equality, you don't.  But why change the status quo when it works for you, right?

I am not surprised at all by the reactions here, men just wanna hang with their bros and bro out.

 

 

Edited by pumaAttack

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17 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

 

Actually your whole rant doesn't stand...  Just because discrimination is a thing doesn't make it right.  

Woman across the world have to fight for equality, you don't.  But why change the status quo when it works for you, right?

I am not surprised at all by the reactions here, men just wanna hang with their bros and bro out.

 

 

What about the "all women's" clubs?  

How do you feel about them?

-Matt-

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Just now, 14ledo81 said:

What about the "all women's" clubs?  

How do you feel about them?

What do you think came first?  What necessitated the need for an all Woman's club?

Lets think about that one...  Which group has been discriminated on for hundreds of years...

Tony  


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I just think it's weird that a golf course would care so much about the configuration of people's genitals. 

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2 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

What do you think came first?  What necessitated the need for an all Woman's club?

Lets think about that one...  Which group has been discriminated on for hundreds of years...

Will you just answer the question?

-Matt-

"does it still count as a hit fairway if it is the next one over"

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10 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

Yet this year's host is still men only. And until 2014 St. Andrews was men only.  Augusta National was men only until 2012. I don't agree with clubs not allowing women to join, but I don't see why that has any bearing on them hosting an event. In the end, it doesn't really bother me much either way because we'll still be able to watch them play on fantastic courses.

ST Andrews hasn't been men only for a couple hundred years, There are 7 clubs that surround the course. A couple are women only, a couple are men only and a couple have both men and women as members. The St. Andrews Links Trust is a public entity. The R&A used to run the tournament but they didn't own the course. The spun off the tournament entity a few years ago to try to avoid concern over their men only membership. Muirefiled in contrast is all male and they own the course.

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1 hour ago, VOX said:

ST Andrews hasn't been men only for a couple hundred years, There are 7 clubs that surround the course. A couple are women only, a couple are men only and a couple have both men and women as members. The St. Andrews Links Trust is a public entity. The R&A used to run the tournament but they didn't own the course. The spun off the tournament entity a few years ago to try to avoid concern over their men only membership. Muirefiled in contrast is all male and they own the course.

Royal Troon (this year's host) is also a men-only club; however, they share the course with a ladies' club, and members of both clubs make up the tournament committee for championships held there. The R&A has not yet decided on whether this arrangement satisfies their requirements for female membership, but if it does, that seems like a reasonable compromise for the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers.

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Okay, so the R&A has their rules and Muirfield has theirs, and maybe the twain will never meet! I'm with those who feel that Muirfield has the right to organize their club any way they feel fit. If they don't care about being in the rota, they should just thumb their noses.

I'm sure that the membership at Muirfield is limited, and I would be willing to bet that there are men who would like to join who can't get in. Maybe they should band together and launch a lawsuit! Limited membership?! Limited to whom?! Discrimination!

And the way the meaning of the word discrimination has been warped in recent years to only refer to only one aspect of human behavior is illustrative of how deeply the PC effort has run. In the past a person capable of "discrimination", or who had "discriminating taste", was a person capable of distinguishing quality from junk. Considering how much junk we are exposed to these days, one might hope for a return of that capacity.

 

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6 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

 

Actually your whole rant doesn't stand...  Just because discrimination is a thing doesn't make it right.  

Woman across the world have to fight for equality, you don't.  But why change the status quo when it works for you, right?

I am not surprised at all by the reactions here, men just wanna hang with their bros and bro out.

 

 

And what's wrong with that?

I reckon the members at Muirfield don't really care what the R&A think,I'm glad they stuck to their guns and I hope they do the same at Troon. It's pathetic that political correctness seems to have the right to invade any walk of life the see fit to.

It's a private members club,paid by the members,it#s nobody else's business.

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7 hours ago, jgreen85 said:

There are economic consequences to this discrimination. Having access to these "elite institutions" has direct impact to one's earning potential. Every private club in the world touts the economic benefits one can accrue from being a member. If you're a member at Augusta, every golfer would want to be your friend. You can't ignore this. If men/women were truly equal, you're right it wouldn't matter, but the economic reality is men/women are not equal. In my opinion, the more advantaged group has to make allowances for the less advantage.

Though lots of white people are members/employees of the NAACP, they wouldn't be impacted economically if they weren't allowed to be. Remove the economic component and no one cares; no one complains the KKK does not allowing black people.

Even if they allowed women it's not like any woman could just get a membership if they had the money. The members would still be picking (or "discriminating") the candidates based on other factors like their status, connections, etc. Condoleezza Rice wasn't one of Augusta first picks by chance, they're still being exclusive.

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The Muirfield message was kind of convoluted.

Quote

The introduction of lady members is bound to create difficulties. Regardless of the conventions when they first join they are likely over time to question our foursome play, our match system, the uncompromising challenge our fine links present, our lunch arrangements. It will take a very special lady golfer to be able to do all the things that are expected of them in the template which is suggested and the ladies' membership as a whole may not meet this standard.

"It seems very strange to take a step to fundamentally change a strong institution with real risks to that strength in order to retain a 'one off' event that happens rarely. This is made even more strange when it is possible that the change may not work."

I seriously doubt that women would question their foursome and match play unless they do something really unusual on the course, which I seriously doubt. Perhaps they might have to build an extra tee box, but I'm sure they already have one to accommodate their grouchy old men that the women could use. So that leaves the lunch menu. Scottish Cuisine is an oxymoron to begin with. Are they afraid they might have to add fresh green salads to the menu or something like that? Or perhaps they might have to replace the ale with cab sauv at the 19th? They must have been worried about big changes like that. It really didn't make much sense. Granted it's a private club and they can vote however they want.

This said, 64% of the membership voted in favor of allowing women, but their bylaws require a 2/3 majority vote. Basically women will have to wait for a couple of old codgers to die.

Considering that the R&A finally moved into the 21st century a little over a year ago allowing women to join, this is an indication that progress moves at a glacial pace in the private area of the golf world. After all it wasn't until 1990 that Augusta National allowed black members, and finally in 2012 allowed women to join.

The thing about these private clubs is not simple political correctness, there is business access. Membership has privileges. If you're a member of an exclusive country club there are numerous networking opportunities that can present themselves. Keeping women out is one of the things that keeps a glass ceiling in place. Political correctness aside.

But you say, women have formed their own clubs where men can be guests but not join. You don't see nearly as many men wanting to be guests or wanting to become members except to maybe play with their wives once in a while as a guest. But certainly not a member. Why? There's no political or business benefit.

And finally, anyone can join the NAACP. I just went to their web site and clicked on "join." 

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16 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

 

Actually your whole rant doesn't stand...  Just because discrimination is a thing doesn't make it right.  

Woman across the world have to fight for equality, you don't.  But why change the status quo when it works for you, right?

I am not surprised at all by the reactions here, men just wanna hang with their bros and bro out.

 

 

It's not discrimination, it's a private club, as such they get to decide who their members are.  There are plenty of women only clubs and businesses, do you believe they are discriminating?  

Joe Paradiso

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40 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

It's not discrimination, it's a private club, as such they get to decide who their members are.  There are plenty of women only clubs and businesses, do you believe they are discriminating?  

This statement is certainly true in the USA.  Probably true in Great Britain too.  As long as you're paying your own way you can have a private club with whatever membership rules you choose.  It is also true that the R&A, or USGA for that matter, can also have rules about what courses it will sponsor tournaments at and what ones it won't.   The trouble with being a free country is it works both ways.

Butch

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