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Am I being an A**Hole


kpaulhus
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Am I being an A** Hole?  

38 members have voted

  1. 1. Am I being an A** Hole?

    • Yes, you should have been more considerate.
      23
    • No, you were right in your actions
      15


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2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I think its reasonable to expect a group to allow you to play through, if they're not keeping up with the group ahead, regardless of the "acceptable" pace of play.  If they ARE keeping up, its appropriate to accept that there's no room to play through.

I agree here. If the group in front of you are in the right spot then it is misplaced anger at the group in front of you. If the pace is off then it is the responsibility of the pro shop to get it back in line. Trying to do it yourself is a surefire way to have bad feelings, misplaced anger, lots of bad things. It can get personal too.

3 hours ago, kpaulhus said:

Ok I have read every response. I think I was both good and bad as @mchepp pointed out. 

I started out correctly by contacting the pro shop, but by the 8th hole I was getting annoyed and did the standing on the tee box with my hand on my hip move. I probably should not have asked them to push the 4some on the 9th tee. I was an ass there.

Thanks for helping me understand and somewhat vent. 

We have all done the impatient hands on hips thing before. I have seen it kinda grow into a 4 headed monster before, kinda like a mob mentality within the group with everyone complaining about how slow it is. I think it best to alert the pro shop let them handle it, if they don't fix it then you can get angry with them which avoids you having any issues with other members. Now you are just upset with the pro shop for not doing their job. 

Michael

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I fail to understand all of the facts here.  You say that you caught the twosome on the 4th tee and that they were ...

22 hours ago, kpaulhus said:

having a hard time keeping  up with the 4some in front of them.

But then you say that on the 8th tee they were waiting for the green to clear 200 yards away.  That makes it sound like they were keeping up just fine.

Then several times you go and mention what is an acceptable pace for a twosome.  What does that even mean is regards to a group that is following another group?

The more I read it and think about it, the more I lean towards you being out of line.  But I wasn't there and perhaps don't have all of the info correct, so ...

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The 8th hole is a 400 yard par 4 and the 4some was walking off of the green when the 2some finally left the tee box. The issue really wasnt them waiting until they got to the green, it was a 3-4 minute process for them to tee off with 5-6 practice swings, ball OB or in a lake or just topped a few yards, re tee, 5-6 practice swings, 180 yd drive.

They kept the same pace the whole round, but I felt the gap between them and the 4some was enough (and growing) that we could play through without any issues, like we did on the 10th hole. Our 3some was pulling up to the 11th tee before the 2some teed off on 10. When we were on 14 green, we saw the 2some on the 12th tee. 

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If they were playing at pace you would not have had to ask to play through. I have been suffering through late rounds with invariable bone heads taking all the time in the world to look for balls and not letting people play through (pretty sad when 2 walkers can pressure 2 guys in a cart).

Most of the time these people are oblivious to the fact that they are slowing the whole course down and saying something to the is definitely not out of line. I just don't know your demeanor at that time. If you were pissy and annoyed when you got a chance to talk to them, maybe it seemed a little aggressive. I am on your side with speeding them up, they sounded content to be stuck behind the 4 some so they played equally slow.

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I voted no.  Bottom line, you kept catching up with them and you could see that they weren't playing up to the pace of the group in front of them.  They could have let you play through and deal with the foursome that was slowing everyone down.  I learned to let faster players through at the putt-putt course... why don't people know it on the big-boy course?

Maybe, instead of encouraging them to be more vocal to the group in front (which they're not going to be comfortable doing as new players), tell them (while hitching up your pants) to let you play through and you'd take care of the foursome.

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I'm going to put myself in the place of the twosome, a golfing newcomer and a guest.  We're close to keeping pace with the foursome in front of us, although we're making a conscious effort not to get too close.  We don't really want the pressure of playing through, being new to golf and all.  We can't see whether there's anyone in front of the foursome.  Now someone wants to play through, and in our view, there's really not much room between us and the foursome ahead, only the space we've consciously maintained.  In addition, we're on schedule to finish the 9 in about 2 hours, right on the pace the pro told us would be expected of us.  So when the guys behind want to play through, we say there's really no room.  We don't think its our responsibility to push the more experienced (we're guessing) foursome in front of us, they're on the acceptable pace the pro described as well.

I don't think @kpaulhus was way out of line, just a little bit.  The suggestion that two new golfers (Kyle didn't know they were inexperienced at the time) should be pushing a foursome to play faster is a little over the top, in my opinion, especially without knowing that there's not a whole line of groups playing at that same (reasonable) pace.  But again, calling the pro shop, letting them sort it out, is definitely the right thing to do.  And as I mentioned, and as Kyle said he was considering, reaching out to the prospective golf member would also be the right thing to do, in my opinion.  None of us learned the etiquette of playing through, or letting someone else play through, from other inexperienced players.  We learned it from more experienced players helping us newbies out.

 

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I honestly think no great harm in jiggling the chain a little bit through the next link even if it is not the slowest link as long as you jiggle it gently. The money is in the presentation. Nice disarms and  gets even unreasonable demands met many a times. Prevents hard feelings and keeps newbies coming back.

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Vishal S.

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24 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

And as I mentioned, and as Kyle said he was considering, reaching out to the prospective golf member would also be the right thing to do, in my opinion.

I especially like this - being that we're talking about a private club and all. :beer:  Make some friends!! ;)

20 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Nice disarms and  gets even unreasonable demands met many a times.

Totally agree.  Tangentially related at least to your point ... played this morning, hit a drive into the fairway over, guy ahead of us hits his approach on that hole from a similar spot, then as I approach the other ball sitting there, he waves and then stops and says "Oh no, I hope I didn't just hit your ball."  He and I arrive at the other one at the same time, and he goes "yep, I did.  So sorry."  I say its no problem, and he's like "tell you what, I'll leave it in the hole for you" then I give him his Titleist and drop one where mine had been and we move on.  IMO, if in doubt, nice is always the way to go.

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37 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm going to put myself in the place of the twosome, a golfing newcomer and a guest.  We're close to keeping pace with the foursome in front of us, although we're making a conscious effort not to get too close.  We don't really want the pressure of playing through, being new to golf and all.  We can't see whether there's anyone in front of the foursome.  Now someone wants to play through, and in our view, there's really not much room between us and the foursome ahead, only the space we've consciously maintained.  In addition, we're on schedule to finish the 9 in about 2 hours, right on the pace the pro told us would be expected of us.  So when the guys behind want to play through, we say there's really no room.  We don't think its our responsibility to push the more experienced (we're guessing) foursome in front of us, they're on the acceptable pace the pro described as well.

I don't think @kpaulhus was way out of line, just a little bit.  The suggestion that two new golfers (Kyle didn't know they were inexperienced at the time) should be pushing a foursome to play faster is a little over the top, in my opinion, especially without knowing that there's not a whole line of groups playing at that same (reasonable) pace.  But again, calling the pro shop, letting them sort it out, is definitely the right thing to do.  And as I mentioned, and as Kyle said he was considering, reaching out to the prospective golf member would also be the right thing to do, in my opinion.  None of us learned the etiquette of playing through, or letting someone else play through, from other inexperienced players.  We learned it from more experienced players helping us newbies out.

 

As usual, I think you hit the nail on the head on all counts. There was nothing malicious in Kyle's actions, but the situation might have called for a bit more understanding. Typically it would be best to have the head pro speak with a group about pace of play etiquette, as he comes from a position of authority. Hearing it from a fellow golfer can come off as confrontational, even if the message is well intended.

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We have a Marshal on patrol during peak times and this helps the flow of traffic quite a bit. He will usually arrange for people to play through or wait, as required.

I get into a lot of golf sandwiches, with supremely lousy golfers in front of me, and good golfers behind me. The end result is the golfers behind me become upset with me. They see me taking practice swings in the fairway, which looks like I am wasting time. However, I'm just trying to stay loose while I wait for the three stooges ahead of me to putt out. The guys behind me cannot always see what the stooges are doing, but I can see them. 

One thing I will not do is let someone else decide for me when it's safe to hit into another group. I may have hooked my last tee shot, but I won't hook all of them. As such I reserve the right to make that decision. 

People are always welcome to play through. 

 

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22 hours ago, newtogolf said:

There has to be room for a group to play through, wanting to go faster at the expense of everyone else isn't justification for playing through.  

Define "room"?

If I'm a single or a twosome and there are two foursomes ahead of me, and then a gap, I'd call that plenty of "room."

22 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

Most courses I play have a rule right on the card that says "allow faster groups to play through" somewhere in the list. Granted, that does require an opening to be possible, but just pointing out that it's not a courtesy, it is a rule. At least pretty much anywhere I've ever played.

That still doesn't make it a "rule" per se. How could such a rule be enforced? The lack of ability to enforce it makes it more of a suggestion.

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3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Define "room"?

If I'm a single or a twosome and there are two foursomes ahead of me, and then a gap, I'd call that plenty of "room."

I guess on some courses you can see a gap 3 holes ahead but on mine, there's only a few holes where that's possible.  If a single or twosome wants to skip the next two holes to get to the gap that's their prerogative but if I'm keeping pace with the foursome in front of me, I'm not inclined to let you play through at my expense.    

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Joe Paradiso

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7 minutes ago, iacas said:

That still doesn't make it a "rule" per se. How could such a rule be enforced? The lack of ability to enforce it makes it more of a suggestion.

It's enforceable just as much as any other rule on the course, like cart path only/90* rule, etc. It can be enforced by the staff on the course, either a marshall or someone from the club house. However, it is up to the course to decide if it's worth enforcing. In the end it, it really makes it like any other rule of golf though, there's nothing to force people to obey rules when there really is no penalty for not following the rules or nobody there to enforce them.

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9 hours ago, newtogolf said:

I guess on some courses you can see a gap 3 holes ahead but on mine, there's only a few holes where that's possible.  If a single or twosome wants to skip the next two holes to get to the gap that's their prerogative but if I'm keeping pace with the foursome in front of me, I'm not inclined to let you play through at my expense.    

I disagree with that definition of "room."

If a faster group is behind me I let them through unless I know there are many groups all in reach of each other ahead. If I know there's one group ahead of us and then space and we aren't on the 17th, I'll wave them through. It's proper etiquette.

Quote

Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

The etiquette section in the Rules of Golf even specifically addresses this.

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from everything I've learned this season, it seems they should have let you play through.  It also sounds like maybe the new folks in front of you should make a point of learning etiquette and protocol.  I know when I first hit the course I thought it was a lazy stroll, boy was I wrong :)  (in my defense, my only frame of reference was the movies and TV up to that point)

my wife and I played 18 yesterday in four hours and we both shot in the 120's, so there is no reason why players who are learning, or are just plain bad, can't play in the expected time.

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I pose this question, cuz it's happened to me.  Lots of 3 and 4 somes on the course, but some with several 1 hole gaps between some of them.  A twosome (granted they were very good), basically played through every other group on the course.  Is this correct etiquette?  Haven't done the math, but should you slow a lot of people down by a little bit, so that just one twosome could save a lot of time?

Applying it to your situation @kpaulhus.  If you thought there would be other foursomes on the course (ahead of the two groups directly in front of you) that were also on a 4 hour pace, would that have impacted your decision to try to play through?  (knowing you'd either just get stuck behind another foursome, or would you just play through all of them).

Edited by bones75
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Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

That is poorly written.  What does "not lost a clear hole" mean.  If you are right behind the group in front of you you have "not lost a clear hole", or 10 seconds behind, or 1 minute behind...  There can be no consistency in interpreting that rule.

If you take that rule literally, a faster twosome or even a single has the right to just march through a completely full course of foursomes at their own pace.  

This rule is not followed in my experience which renders it moot.

6 hours ago, iacas said:

The etiquette section in the Rules of Golf even specifically addresses this.

 

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7 hours ago, No Mulligans said:

That is poorly written.  What does "not lost a clear hole" mean.  If you are right behind the group in front of you you have "not lost a clear hole", or 10 seconds behind, or 1 minute behind...  There can be no consistency in interpreting that rule.

If you take that rule literally, a faster twosome or even a single has the right to just march through a completely full course of foursomes at their own pace.  

This rule is not followed in my experience which renders it moot.

 

I agree, no one waves through a group just because they can play faster if there isn't a place for them to go and the net effect is it makes the round longer for the rest of us.  

Joe Paradiso

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