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dennyjones

Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

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Regardless of what happened, when it was called, etc., this and the incidents last year are making our game look very petty to the average fan and non-fan. In every other sport, fans complain about missed calls, bad calls, etc., but only in golf can the fan do something about it. Very odd dynamic, especially in our world of slow motion HD video.

If feel bad for Lexi and bad for Ryu, but I feel worse for golf.

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14 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Regardless of what happened, when it was called, etc., this and the incidents last year are making our game look very petty to the average fan and non-fan. In every other sport, fans complain about missed calls, bad calls, etc., but only in golf can the fan do something about it. Very odd dynamic, especially in our world of slow motion HD video.

If feel bad for Lexi and bad for Ryu, but I feel worse for golf.

I'd still rather it was this way than allowing cheating as long as no refs spot you doing it. It seems petty because so many other sports think diving/flopping/faking injury is part of the sport. It's one of the reasons I love golf so much.

Edit: Not the petty calling in by fans, but the fact that cheating is called cheating and is commonly understood as being NOT part of the sport.

Edited by Pete

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7 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Regardless of what happened, when it was called, etc., this and the incidents last year are making our game look very petty to the average fan and non-fan. In every other sport, fans complain about missed calls, bad calls, etc., but only in golf can the fan do something about it. Very odd dynamic, especially in our world of slow motion HD video.

If feel bad for Lexi and bad for Ryu, but I feel worse for golf.

this is pretty well said, I honestly don't care or feel bad for either, I don't watch much ladies golf and don't really care...I do care for golf a whole and IMO there is no way this doesn't make the game and ruling bodies look like a joke. Sadly I believe it goes way beyond looking like a joke, I honestly believe from the USGA, The ancient and Royal (or whatever they call themselves) all way down are a joke. They hide behind the rules and the past, they refuse to allow logic to enter the think tank.

There is no defense IMO for a penalty be able to be called over the span of days after the fact but then to not be able to change the scorecard. That is laughable and lends itself to lack of credibility.

Based on the rules I don't have a major issue with the 2 strokes for the ball replacement...the additional 2 for the scorecard are just BS.

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I'm not a fan of the call ins.  In other sports the game is dynamic with plays and games over quickly.  Only in an official protest on a rule interpretation, then award can a game be resumed from the point of the misapplication.  That's why, IMO, rules officials are out there.   

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23 minutes ago, Hatchman said:

I'm not a fan of the call ins.  In other sports the game is dynamic with plays and games over quickly.  Only in an official protest on a rule interpretation, then award can a game be resumed from the point of the misapplication.  That's why, IMO, rules officials are out there.   

That's not why the Rules Officials are out there. They are an (optional) resource provided for the players' benefit, in case they have questions.

In other sports, there is no ability to go back and replay from the time the mistake was made. In stroke-play golf, you can get really darn close (aside from the impact on strategy for someone leading vs. trailing).

Does anyone here think the LPGA thought nobody would mind this? No, they knew it would be an absolute shitstorm, but they did it anyway, because they had no alternative under the rules.

IMO, the penalty was clearly deserved. This wasn't Dustin Johnson accidentally moving a ball a millimeter; this was a player either cheating to avoid a spike mark or being so careless that it looked that way. 

Like others, I'm uncomfortable with the 2-stroke penalty for the incorrect scorecard, given that it is signed based on information available at the time. But I'm not sure the alternative is any better, since it would encourage the Cella Choi's of the world to cheat and try to get away with it.

It's a tough spot.

IMO, to think "This is f-ing ridiculous and the LPGA sucks and they blew it" is just as silly as thinking "Those are the rules and they're fine so you shouldn't even think these situations are a little weird." The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle.

I think the ruling bodies are erring on the side of penalties, because the alternative - someone cheating and winning and it's discovered too late - is far worse.

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While I agree with the ruling, IMO it is a double penalty for singing an incorrect scorecard. A player who is found to have incurred a penalty in a prior round should have the ability to sign an amended scorecard.
The incorrect scorecard penalty was designed, again IMO, for errors made in scorekeeping. (see Roberto de Vincenzo for the highlight example, but this happens more frequently then people would think). I think that signing the card is an attestation that the scores reflect the accurate accounting for each hole and for the round.
To use a poor analogy to the tax situation - I can file an amended return if more information becomes available and I sign that return that it replaces the prior filed return. This it usually done when more information becomes available.

In reviewing the video it looks like Lexi marked her ball while standing beside it, rather than behind the ball. I didn't watch the round, but is there a reason that she was at an unusual position when she marked it?
I'm thinking that I need to use a marker with an arrow on it that says the ball goes here (would that be legal); I'm thinking I could sell these to help players eliminate this potential.

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4 hours ago, mvmac said:

No, she wasn't aware she placed the ball in the wrong spot. You can be penalized for unintentional violations. Because she replaced the ball incorrectly the score she signed for yesterday wasn't correct.

I think that was an act if she said she didn't. No one wants to admit that they cheated.

I hear from other stories that these little discrepancies go on all over the competitive golf realm so she got caught this time. They all probably joke about it over wine later.

Anyway, she cheated. I know if I violated the rules in golf especially something like she did. She could have went back and given herself a 2 stroke penalty before she turned in the score card but didn't. It was a blatant move and she is a pro that has played a lot of golf and knows damn well she did this. She has marked a ball a million times.

I guess I don't understand this behavior at all. I have taken "liberties" with the rules at times knowing it only affects me, (something that is unfair on the course or unintentionally  stupid)  but end up penalizing myself when the round is over (the guilt gets me). However when it comes to competing with others I don't take any, ever. I just don't get any value out of winning by cheating. It must be the money. All I know is that trophy would be forever a reminder that I cheated in that tournament.

Maybe they assume everyone else is doing it?

Edited by Valleygolfer

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1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

Regardless of what happened, when it was called, etc., this and the incidents last year are making our game look very petty to the average fan and non-fan. In every other sport, fans complain about missed calls, bad calls, etc., but only in golf can the fan do something about it. Very odd dynamic, especially in our world of slow motion HD video.

If feel bad for Lexi and bad for Ryu, but I feel worse for golf.

This.  No matter how you feel about the situation, the end result is that it makes golf look really, really bad to both regular and the casual viewer.  I don't like it one bit.

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4 hours ago, mvmac said:

You're right. Lexi screwed up and she had to deal with the consequences.

I think they'll look into it but at the end of the day I don't know what else can be done. You could have a cut off for penalties when the next rounds starts but the tournament is still ongoing. The player's score is based on 72 holes of golf, you can't have a player be "safe" from a violation they made during one or more of those 72 holes. They did modify the rule so that it's a penalty for signing an incorrect score instead of a DQ. 

People are going to say they shouldn't allow call ins/emails from viewers but it's not like other sports where you have referees watching everything. I do acknowledge it does seem odd that you can have a spectator impact the final result of a tournament. I can see both sides of the argument. I think it's good fans have a voice but on the other hand I don't think it's good for the "brand" of golf to keep getting these mid-round surprise score revisions, especially in majors.

With the delay, it's better that they get it right than rush and get it wrong. They also don't have the option of stopping play or something like that.

Basically the whole thing sucks. I watched the replay and couldn't even tell she replaced the ball incorrectly. She made a mistake and obviously wasn't trying to cheat or get away with something. Maybe players should be able to throw a "common sense" flag. If you have to zoom in, play it in slow-mo to see the violation and the player didn't gain an advantage, we could just call it no harm no foul.

It's all wrong. NO. So, should we go back and watch video of all the previous tournaments and see if we can find errors and change history? Why not? NO sport allows this and neither should golf. 'Missing' calls is present in all sports. It's the nature of sport, period. There are rules officials there, playing partners, caddies, etc. If something gets missed, that's the nature of sports. Period. Should the rules weigh heavier on leaders and big names than anybody else in the field? Does that make any sense? I don't care that Lexi made a mistake. You're gonna tell me there's NO way any other golfer the entire tournament did anything like that and didn't get penalized? Is it possible? Should we watch every second of Ryu's rounds on HD to see if she truly won the tournament? Viewers calling in should have zero value. Zero. No argument to that. 

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I don't disagree with the penalty call (although I'm not a supporter of viewers calling in), but I don't think technically she signed an incorrect scorecard. At the time she believed that the scorecard was correct. I agree that viewers (who I guess have some great video equipment and nothing better to do) calling in should be completely disregarded. If the rules officials and the fellow players did not see any infraction then it didn't happen. To call it a day later is a total joke.

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The ONLY way to make this a level playing field is to have a camera on every single player, watching their every move.  Otherwise we are saying the leaders will have millions of referees watching them but the rest of the field is off the hook.  The statement about "protecting the field" is understandable but lets "protect" everyone.  Not just the ones who get televised and scrutinized.

We want to say our sport is self-governed and that we call penalties on ourselves.  If that were so we wouldn't have debacles like this over and over.  The plain truth is we can run afoul of the rules in a hundred different ways and not know it.  So we have officials out there.  It's laughable we say they are there in case the players have questions etc.  They are there to enforce the rules.  DJ said he didn't move his ball.  The rules guys say he didn't. Play on.  Uh, no, he did!  He did move it.  Bam, he did move it because much later the officials said he did.  Now Lexi gets bitten by the same crap.  Only this time we wait UNTIL the next day.  

I love golf and I hope it never dies, but the ones "protecting" it are making us look like idiots.

   

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4 hours ago, SG11118 said:

There is a bit of a disconnect that you need to sign your card after each 18 hole round, but they can assess penalties over the entire 72 hole tournament.  Why not change the rules to let the golfer officially sign for all four 18 hole rounds at the end of the 72 hole tournament?

Yes, the double penalty for "incorrect scorecard" is the rule that needs to be changed. This would be easiest to change as well. 

2 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Caught the playoff hole and subsequent interviews and talking heads. Wow, brutal. Definitely sucks for Lexi, but they could have shown a little more class and respect for the winner. They flat out called her "undeserving" of the win. Classless. 

To be fair, the winner said herself that she was undeserving. I thought both ladies handled it with class. 

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This shit needs to stop. Thompson missed her infraction, her playing partners missed it, the traveling official missed it. Know what? thats just too bad, then. No other professional sport on earth allows outcomes to be affected by couch potatoes. A day later...how f'ing ridiculous. 

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Regardless of what happened, when it was called, etc., this and the incidents last year are making our game look very petty to the average fan and non-fan. In every other sport, fans complain about missed calls, bad calls, etc., but only in golf can the fan do something about it. Very odd dynamic, especially in our world of slow motion HD video.

If feel bad for Lexi and bad for Ryu, but I feel worse for golf.

Indeed. 

Edited by Groucho Valentine

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2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Regardless of what happened, when it was called, etc., this and the incidents last year are making our game look very petty to the average fan and non-fan. In every other sport, fans complain about missed calls, bad calls, etc., but only in golf can the fan do something about it. Very odd dynamic, especially in our world of slow motion HD video.

If feel bad for Lexi and bad for Ryu, but I feel worse for golf.

Very well said, and it is bigger problem than many ROG apologists are willing to admit.  This kind of thing should never happen the next day.  It should be the same day or not at all.  The fans who attended the final round, I imagine were not very pleased to hear about this on the back nine...the next day.  

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IIRC, the RoG initiative addresses this and people won't be able to do this anymore if the new updates are put in place. I assume they apply to the LPGA too?

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12 minutes ago, cipher said:

 It should be the same day or not at all.

This is exactly how I feel.  I don't really have a problem with reviews in sports to achieve the proper outcome. I just find it lame to go back a day and in force a penalty then another one for signing an incorrect scorecard. Why can't they PGA & LPGA have a rules official review these issues on site and issue appropriate penalties as they occur (or ASAP).  I don't like the fans being able to call in and assess a penalty after the fact.

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1 - Calling in - the rules need to change to eliminate that.  It's a circus.  Not a fan. never a fan.  Make the officials, the players and the tournament (only) responsible.  Get the armchair quarterbacks out of it - I don't care if it's Joe Blow, or SuperJudge sitting in his lounger with his finger on the slow mo button.  As long as we have to live with this nonsense, "golf" looks like a joke every time it happens.  Million dollar purses, the tourney can mobilize 18-36 judges - perhaps they can recruit them from the TV fan base.

2 - the penalty, fine, still not a fan of the late call.

3 - the incorrect card penalty - idiotic - it seems that if the final score can use 'late breaking' information, then the player should get the same flexibility

4 - you guys that say say she cheated on purpose - I got no respect for you, it's petty and pointless,

I'd have shrugged if was the 2 point penalty.  4?  Seriously, let the 'official' final signoff be at the end of tourney, not each day if this is remotely considered ok (until the rules change).

The players themselves need to step up en masse and protest - they don't like it, hardly even when it hands them a win.  Poor Ryu will always have an asterik next to her name here.

Edited by rehmwa

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