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Bogey Golfers Only (Index 16-22) / Breaking 90 Topic


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Posted
16 hours ago, RandallT said:

@rkim291968, @Lihu, @Strat-Pack Rick, @808hacker, @DavidMatthew1978, @Hacker James, @lee34, @Vinny Cap, @mcanadiens, @RFKFREAK, @HitAndGiggle, @Kalnoky, @Marty2019, @Hategolf, @Shark9, @dennyjones, @freshmanUTA, @divot dave, @Hazsa, @David L Yskes, @sirhacksalot, @stealthhwk, @KoenA, @Jeremie Boop, @Lugowskins, @DrvFrShow, @Ron, @dave s, @cutchemist42, @uitar9, @Jcm288, @djfajt71, @Brakkus, @Swungover, @xcott, @Al Bundy, @Scotsclaff, @PJCdude, @101101, @hockeyref18, @Braivo, @JonMA1, @CyboNinja, @CR McDivot, @natureboy, @alleztom, @Slowcelica, @ppine, @Osnola, @roamin, @tdiii, @Gaetano Fasano, @No Mulligans, @Covert, @9wood, @CoachCad8, @Rainmaker, @CCC, @sarena1594, @Al B Tross, @bostonboy9416, @Avalanche

As a moderator, I made a mistake here on this thread (one of my faves too!) that inadvertently wiped out all of the Followers. The list above is everyone who has contributed here since May 2016 (page 97!). 

So welcome back to this thread- if you want to continue to get notifications when this thread is updated, please click on "Follow" which is near the top of the page if you are on a computer, and it's at the bottom of the last post if you are on your phone.  (yes, even you, @rkim291968, who started this thread!)

I've also moved it back to the Golf Talk forum, which I had inadvertently moved.

Thanks @Fairway_CY for even noticing my slip-up. 

 

 

Everyone hits a Shank once in a while. Everyone...

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Posted
On 2/1/2017 at 6:48 AM, RandallT said:

@rkim291968, @Lihu, @Strat-Pack Rick, @808hacker, @DavidMatthew1978, @Hacker James, @lee34, @Vinny Cap, @mcanadiens, @RFKFREAK, @HitAndGiggle, @Kalnoky, @Marty2019, @Hategolf, @Shark9, @dennyjones, @freshmanUTA, @divot dave, @Hazsa, @David L Yskes, @sirhacksalot, @stealthhwk, @KoenA, @Jeremie Boop, @Lugowskins, @DrvFrShow, @Ron, @dave s, @cutchemist42, @uitar9, @Jcm288, @djfajt71, @Brakkus, @Swungover, @xcott, @Al Bundy, @Scotsclaff, @PJCdude, @101101, @hockeyref18, @Braivo, @JonMA1, @CyboNinja, @CR McDivot, @natureboy, @alleztom, @Slowcelica, @ppine, @Osnola, @roamin, @tdiii, @Gaetano Fasano, @No Mulligans, @Covert, @9wood, @CoachCad8, @Rainmaker, @CCC, @sarena1594, @Al B Tross, @bostonboy9416, @Avalanche

As a moderator, I made a mistake here on this thread (one of my faves too!) that inadvertently wiped out all of the Followers. The list above is everyone who has contributed here since May 2016 (page 97!). 

So welcome back to this thread- if you want to continue to get notifications when this thread is updated, please click on "Follow" which is near the top of the page if you are on a computer, and it's at the bottom of the last post if you are on your phone.  (yes, even you, @rkim291968, who started this thread!)

I've also moved it back to the Golf Talk forum, which I had inadvertently moved.

Thanks @Fairway_CY for even noticing my slip-up. 

 

 

Nice!  Thanks for getting it back up and moving again!

CY

Career Bests
- 18 Holes - 72 (+1) - Par 71 - Pine Island Country Club - 6/25/2022
- 9 Holes - 36 (E) - Par 36 - Pine Island Country Club - 6/25/2022

 

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Posted

Hello everyone,I've been working my way through this thread for a couple of days now,gotta say it's excellent.

It's great to read of golfers similar to myself,there faults and strengths,and how many have improved.Just what I needed to motivate me to keep practicing,(it's winter here).

Personally what I feel I need to work on to improve my game is remaining focused for a full round,and also start playin smarter.


Posted

Hey guys, so I played 2 times in, both at the same course, ASU Karsten. My final score for each game was 91, and 90 respectively. I played from the blacks just because that's what I do, I don't really care about my score just about hitting nice shots. 

Both times I played I birdied the first hole, on a good drive, good approach shot, then 1 putt for birdie, similar locations but completely different stances. Then the rest of the round I had a random gathering of pars, bogeys, doubles, and one triple bogey in the first round. Now, I read LSW and it talks about making the anomaly shot the shank, and most golfers think the bad shots are the anomaly even though technically the good shot is. What I want to know is, since this is a common theme when i play(I usually get a birdie in the first 3 holes), is this technically an anomaly hole or am I truly capable of good results, just not consistently. I'm having trouble figuring it out cause almost every time i play there's always a hole where every shot i hit is good.

 

-Matt

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Posted
1 hour ago, knucklebuster said:

Hello everyone,I've been working my way through this thread for a couple of days now,gotta say it's excellent.

It's great to read of golfers similar to myself,there faults and strengths,and how many have improved.Just what I needed to motivate me to keep practicing,(it's winter here).

Personally what I feel I need to work on to improve my game is remaining focused for a full round,and also start playin smarter.

Welcome!

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Driver: :ping: G30, Irons: :tmade: Burner 2.0, Putter: :cleveland:, Balls: :snell:

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Posted
1 hour ago, freshmanUTA said:

Hey guys, so I played 2 times in, both at the same course, ASU Karsten. My final score for each game was 91, and 90 respectively. I played from the blacks just because that's what I do, I don't really care about my score just about hitting nice shots. 

Both times I played I birdied the first hole, on a good drive, good approach shot, then 1 putt for birdie, similar locations but completely different stances. Then the rest of the round I had a random gathering of pars, bogeys, doubles, and one triple bogey in the first round. Now, I read LSW and it talks about making the anomaly shot the shank, and most golfers think the bad shots are the anomaly even though technically the good shot is. What I want to know is, since this is a common theme when i play(I usually get a birdie in the first 3 holes), is this technically an anomaly hole or am I truly capable of good results, just not consistently. I'm having trouble figuring it out cause almost every time i play there's always a hole where every shot i hit is good.

 

-Matt

I used to like to think that my 'potential' was defined by the really good shots I'd hit each round.  It wasn't until just recently that I realized that potential is actually really difficult to define.  

In my mind's eye, I would look at statistics and see that I was improving, so... that meant my potential was greater.  I've had people (both here and on the course) tell me that there was going to be an eventual ceiling to how well I'd be able to play without proper instruction and practice.  I didn't want to believe it, but it's proven itself to be true.  I haven't necessarily reached MY ceiling yet, but... I'm getting close to it and I've witnessed others reach theirs.  

Whether you define those birdie holes as anomalies or not is entirely up to you.  I've been playing for 24 years.  My birdies are still the anomalies in my round.  Over my last 20 rounds or so, I'm twice as likely to make a triple or more (10%) as I am to make a birdie (5%).  Meanwhile... 66% of my scores are pars (31%) or bogies (35%).  

Am I capable of putting together a hole now and again where the tee shot, approach shot and putt were all pretty good to great?  Yes.  That doesn't mean that I have the potential to ever post 13 birdies and shoot a 59 though.  I can trick myself into believing it, but the reality is that if I can make even a single birdie per round, it usually just comes down to my timing being 'on' during those few strokes.  Until I'm coached properly and I'm practicing the RIGHT THINGS in the RIGHT WAY... my potential is limited.  That's the realization that I've finally come to after a long time of fooling myself into believing that I didn't need an instructor to get to the scoring range I want to eventually get to (5.0 index - give or take).

What does this mean for you?  I don't know.  Only you can define that and only you can decide where you want your ceiling to be.  

Welcome to the thread!

CY

Career Bests
- 18 Holes - 72 (+1) - Par 71 - Pine Island Country Club - 6/25/2022
- 9 Holes - 36 (E) - Par 36 - Pine Island Country Club - 6/25/2022

 

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Posted
On 11/1/2013 at 4:42 PM, JCRuzanski said:

short game, short game, short game. My ball striking has improved considerably, so my emphasis has been on chipping, and putting. In the past I'd roll a putt too far past then miss the comeback putt. So I've been working on consistent putting. I've also been trying to play smarter. Why break out driver on the 4's that a 5 iron off the tee will work out well...

And some good course management technique will also help immensely.


Posted

I can't compare myself to anyone else, just me. I've seen a reduction in my overall spread of rounds. I started scoring 110--140. Last year it was 79-108. I'm gonna stick with that spread reduction as my method to see my improvement.

As psychonana said, course management and short game. Thats where I hit the majority of my shots.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, uitar9 said:

I can't compare myself to anyone else, just me. I've seen a reduction in my overall spread of rounds. I started scoring 110--140. Last year it was 79-108. I'm gonna stick with that spread reduction as my method to see my improvement.

As psychonana said, course management and short game. Thats where I hit the majority of my shots.

I'm not the best at math but your spread went from 30 strokes to 29 strokes. But the middle of the spread went down by about 30 strokes!

i don't think your improvement came from tightening up your spread of rounds.  It came from just plain old getting better, right?!

That 79 though! Nice!!!

My Swing


Driver: :ping: G30, Irons: :tmade: Burner 2.0, Putter: :cleveland:, Balls: :snell:

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Posted
18 hours ago, freshmanUTA said:

Hey guys, so I played 2 times in, both at the same course, ASU Karsten. My final score for each game was 91, and 90 respectively. I played from the blacks just because that's what I do, I don't really care about my score just about hitting nice shots. 

Both times I played I birdied the first hole, on a good drive, good approach shot, then 1 putt for birdie, similar locations but completely different stances. Then the rest of the round I had a random gathering of pars, bogeys, doubles, and one triple bogey in the first round. Now, I read LSW and it talks about making the anomaly shot the shank, and most golfers think the bad shots are the anomaly even though technically the good shot is. What I want to know is, since this is a common theme when i play(I usually get a birdie in the first 3 holes), is this technically an anomaly hole or am I truly capable of good results, just not consistently. I'm having trouble figuring it out cause almost every time i play there's always a hole where every shot i hit is good.

Is it possible that the first 3 holes are simply the easiest on the course where direction and accuracy are not at a premium as possibly the others especially from the longest tees?

If not, this could also be a mental issue possibly? If your up mood on the first three holes leads to apprehension that you can't perform the same on the next few holes, that could impede you. Also, if you are in a euphoric mood state after getting the birdies then play a bogey or worse on the 4th or 5th hole, that could cause you to crash?

 

15 hours ago, Fairway_CY said:

I used to like to think that my 'potential' was defined by the really good shots I'd hit each round.  It wasn't until just recently that I realized that potential is actually really difficult to define. 

I can only say that the best shots I had in the past made me want to figure out how to make them more often. At this point my typical shot is probably as good as my best shots 3 years ago, the main difference being that I have more of an understanding of why my shot is better now than it was then. My best shots now are nit that much better than my typical shot, even though some are really long or lucky because of anomalies.

So, I think your best shots do possibly define your physical potential but only if you can somehow manage to make your swing better?

Another thing is that my best shots before took a lot more effort to make than my typical shot now. That's why they're from my typical swing.

In this sense, that could define my best shots 3 years ago as my "potential" for my current typical shot?

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Posted
19 minutes ago, RandallT said:

I'm not the best at math but your spread went from 30 strokes to 29 strokes. But the middle of the spread went down by about 30 strokes!

i don't think your improvement came from tightening up your spread of rounds.  It came from just plain old getting better, right?!

That 79 though! Nice!!!

Yup, the middle has come down. I can see my ceiling tho.  With only so much time available to practice , age, taking it up late in life, I'd be happy to see that middle come down another 5 strokes. Then I'm really grinding. Reducing doubles and triples vs shooting birdies seems to be the place to find those strokes.

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Posted

Today was a day of highs and lows.  I got invited to the Friday money game at my club and decided to give it a go.  Even though my actual handicap is a 14.0 right now, my USGA GHIN index is a 12.0 at the moment.  Being a money game... I had to play off of the 12.0 index, so... a little bit of pressure there.  

Anyway... I played really well on the front.  I had 2 poor holes but, otherwise... I played solid golf and posted a 41 (+5).  The back started pretty well, but then it fell apart.  

On the 14th hole, my approach shot nipped a tree branch and the ball fell just short of the green, landing in a greenside trap and absolutely plugging in the face of the bunker.  It took me 2 swings just to move it and an additional swing to get on the green.  I was so flustered, I three-putted for a smooth snowman.  

I got in my own head from that point and played the remaining holes double - double - double - par.  On the 17th, I missed my landing target by 3 feet and found myself in another garbage lie in a bunker.  

I ended up going 41 - 50 = 91 for the day and losing $26 in the process.  The only reason it wasn't more is because of how I played on the front and I made a 15 footer for par on the last hole to win the press... otherwise, I could have easily lost $50+ today.  

Oh well... tomorrow is the first tournament of the Golfweek Am Tour season in Charlotte.  Gotta get some rest and prepare myself for that.  

CY

Career Bests
- 18 Holes - 72 (+1) - Par 71 - Pine Island Country Club - 6/25/2022
- 9 Holes - 36 (E) - Par 36 - Pine Island Country Club - 6/25/2022

 

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Posted

So... this weekend was not a great weekend from a golf perspective for me.  

Saturday, I woke up excited to get out and play my first stroke play tournament of the year.  Unfortunately, it was pretty cold that morning so things were delayed.  My practice routine was condensed because the range opened 45 minutes late and because I wanted to spend some time inside before the round to warm myself up a bit.  

On the range, I was striping shots.  It just didn't translate to the course.  Somewhere along the way, my brain just jumped up and told me that I was going to play horribly on the par 5's that day.  I played them double - triple - triple - triple for a +11 total on the par 5 holes.  I added a triple on the 1st hole (shotgun format) after hitting into the lip of a fairway bunker and taking 3 strokes to get it out of there.  So, I was +14 on 5 holes en route to a +20 total.  

My 47 - 45 = 92 finished 6 strokes behind the C Flight winner as I posted a tie for 10th out of a 27 man field.  I wasn't happy with that, at all.  

Sunday as a different type of round.  My home course was holding a Super Bowl Shootout where we started with 11 guys on the 1st tee and each hole, the highest score would be eliminated (2 were going to be eliminated on the 4th hole) until there was only 1 person left standing.  A fun format which I'd played only 1 other time.  

Well... someone had to be the first eliminated... and that someone was me.  I murdered my drive and left myself only about 97 yards to the flag.  I hit my wedge just a little thin and the ball ran over the back of the green.  From where I was, there was no way to get the ball close.  I just wanted to get it somewhere on the green and play for a bogey.  My ball ran 45 feet past the hole, as expected.  My putt from there was good speed, but the line was off by a bit, leaving me a 6 footer for bogey.  With 10 other guys and the scorer from the club watching, I pushed that right and left myself a 4 footer for double... and then I pulled that coming back before tapping in for a smooth triple.  

I rode along for a few holes just to watch the action... and then I went to the clubhouse to erase that disaster from my mind with the help of some Crown Royal.  

Today is a rest day for me.  I've got some work to take care of... and then I'll be back on the course tomorrow morning.  Following that, I may not get to play again until February 16th because I'll be traveling for work, but... I'll find ways to keep my mind and body golf active while away.  

CY

Career Bests
- 18 Holes - 72 (+1) - Par 71 - Pine Island Country Club - 6/25/2022
- 9 Holes - 36 (E) - Par 36 - Pine Island Country Club - 6/25/2022

 

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Posted

I went out this morning with a group of older guys at my home club.  I was invited to their game and figured it couldn't hurt to take them up on it.  

It turned out to be a beautiful day.  I was a little rushed because of a conference call for work, but... I made it to the course on time with a few minutes to spare to hit a few balls.  

The front nine was not the greatest.  6 bogeys, a double, a par and a birdie for a +7 score of 43.  Even the birdie was kind of lucky.  I hit a not-so-great drive... a decent 4 iron... and then an 8 iron that was a little thinner than I wanted but finished 3 feet from the hole.  I'll never NOT take a birdie, but that wasn't one of my best.  The score got away from me on the 9th hole when I topped my 3 wood from the tee and it bounced up the left side into a hazard.  It left me 280+ to the hole.  I hit a good shot from the fairway with a pitching wedge to 13 feet to try and save bogey, but I missed the putt for a double.  

The back side was a little better in terms of my play.  A few loose holes hurt me.  I made 5 pars, 2 bogeys, a double and a triple on that side for another +7 score of 43.  The double came on the 13th hole after I got quick with my driver and yanked the ball out of bounds.  I managed a 'second ball par' for the double, but... it still hurt.  The triple was on the 17th hole.  A short par 3 that was at 147 yards today with a stiff breeze into our faces.  I hit a choked-down 7 iron that looked really good... until it flew the green entirely and kicked off the mound and into the weeds.  I should have taken it out of the hazard, but I tried to play it and it led to an ugly hole.  

Overall... the 43 - 43 = 86 wasn't the worse score I could have posted.  I just wish my driver was a little better today.  I only hit 2 drives I would classify as solid out of 9 swings with that club.  The rest were either flat-out bad or ugly but serviceable.  

I'll probably miss the next 2 days with work, but... I hope to play Friday afternoon in the men's money game at the club.  

CY

Career Bests
- 18 Holes - 72 (+1) - Par 71 - Pine Island Country Club - 6/25/2022
- 9 Holes - 36 (E) - Par 36 - Pine Island Country Club - 6/25/2022

 

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Posted

I tell ya what ...  How can a person hit eagle and still end up with an 88? (I've done that twice now, these last couple of months) It's especially frustrating when one of the guys, that never hit better than 4 pars, ends up beating you!!  ARRG!!

That's the "poor me" addition of this reply ...

When a guy, who has played on and off since he was 5, tops out between 88-102, what kind of lessons should he be looking for?

PING G30 irons 4-pw, uw, sw, lw.

Callaway Big Bertha V-Series driver, 3 wood and Heavenwood. 

Odyssey White Hot putter with 5.0 fatso grip.

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Posted
9 minutes ago, Dozer said:

I tell ya what ...  How can a person hit eagle and still end up with an 88? (I've done that twice now, these last couple of months) It's especially frustrating when one of the guys, that never hit better than 4 pars, ends up beating you!!  ARRG!!

That's the "poor me" addition of this reply ...

When a guy, who has played on and off since he was 5, tops out between 88-102, what kind of lessons should he be looking for?

There are so many threads on golf instruction here, so I don't know how to be concise about this. For us bogey golfers, I am becoming more and more convinced through my own experience that I needed the following things:

  1. An overview of the methodology that I would be following. A roadmap of what was ahead, or the philosophy.  (I had failed with in person instructors who seemed to give me tip-type instruction, and I had failed trying to instruct myself). I can work hard on one piece, but I need to know the framework where that piece fits.
  2. An expert who I could trust to tell me what 1 (or maybe 2) key things I needed to work on for the next 2 weeks or a month. Very specific drills.
  3. The determination to actually do a little bit EVERY single day. Ok, I could miss one here and there, but pretty much every day a minimum of 10 minutes.
  4. A practice session that involved using video, and taking the time to review after every shot. Take the range time seriously. Change the damn picture, don't just hit balls. I can go many, many range sessions now and not even hit many balls at full speed. Mostly slow speed and confirming video.

For me, anything short of that was not making my 50+ year old body make progress. It honestly took me several years to realize this. I started playing again several years ago, and thought I could just tinker around and get better than bogey golf. Nope.

So whether or not that helps you, I don't know. Just one guy's lessons learned from a starting point probably similar to yours. Hopefully, this is still on topic for the bogey golfer thread!

2 hours ago, Fairway_CY said:

Overall... the 43 - 43 = 86 wasn't the worse score I could have posted.

Pretty damn good score, CY. More to come I hope.

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Driver: :ping: G30, Irons: :tmade: Burner 2.0, Putter: :cleveland:, Balls: :snell:

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Posted
1 hour ago, RandallT said:

There are so many threads on golf instruction here, so I don't know how to be concise about this. For us bogey golfers, I am becoming more and more convinced through my own experience that I needed the following things:

  1. An overview of the methodology that I would be following. A roadmap of what was ahead, or the philosophy.  (I had failed with in person instructors who seemed to give me tip-type instruction, and I had failed trying to instruct myself). I can work hard on one piece, but I need to know the framework where that piece fits.
  2. An expert who I could trust to tell me what 1 (or maybe 2) key things I needed to work on for the next 2 weeks or a month. Very specific drills.
  3. The determination to actually do a little bit EVERY single day. Ok, I could miss one here and there, but pretty much every day a minimum of 10 minutes.
  4. A practice session that involved using video, and taking the time to review after every shot. Take the range time seriously. Change the damn picture, don't just hit balls. I can go many, many range sessions now and not even hit many balls at full speed. Mostly slow speed and confirming video.

For me, anything short of that was not making my 50+ year old body make progress. It honestly took me several years to realize this. I started playing again several years ago, and thought I could just tinker around and get better than bogey golf. Nope.

So whether or not that helps you, I don't know. Just one guy's lessons learned from a starting point probably similar to yours. Hopefully, this is still on topic for the bogey golfer thread!

Pretty damn good score, CY. More to come I hope.

That is some sound information and I will definitely listen to your requests. I too am battling a 50+ year old body that was beat up pretty bad from playing years of team sports. It gets intetesting, to say the least. I also just picked the sticks back up in July after a 15 year break. Almost like starting all over again. lol  Hell, it gets pretty rough sometimes, ya know. Thanks again!

PING G30 irons 4-pw, uw, sw, lw.

Callaway Big Bertha V-Series driver, 3 wood and Heavenwood. 

Odyssey White Hot putter with 5.0 fatso grip.

Titleist DT Trusoft balls

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Posted
1 hour ago, RandallT said:

Pretty damn good score, CY. More to come I hope.

Thanks bud!  Something has clicked and I'm getting the ball near my targets more frequently.  I used to be good for a few heavy shots and a few block-slices per round.  Anymore, if I have even one of those, it's something I'm able to know exactly why I did it and how to stop it.  

I guess the 'big miss' is absent from my game at the moment and it's resulting in more scoring opportunities.  I'd like to use the My Swing thread to get even better, obviously, but... I'm having more fun playing golf now than I ever have in my life.  

If I could get a little better around the greens and convert some opportunities, I'd finally be able to crack the 80 barrier!

CY

Career Bests
- 18 Holes - 72 (+1) - Par 71 - Pine Island Country Club - 6/25/2022
- 9 Holes - 36 (E) - Par 36 - Pine Island Country Club - 6/25/2022

 

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    • They weren't necessarily short - I don't remember the exact specifics of all of it, but some of them were missing a little left or right or both. Day 1 they were landing on the edge and kicking on, where day 2 they were just missing and kicking down into the bunkers and did it a lot. I think all told I actually went into bunkers on 8 holes. Some of them were not good shots. Like a few examples, on 8, the pin was in the back. I hit it solidly, but pulled it and it went long, over the bunker into long grass. I had the ball in sandy earth with long grass around it and about a foot below my feet. That next shot I tried to do what I could but it went into the bunker in front of me. Into a footprint. That one I dug out of the footprint, but still in the bunker. Got that one out of the bunker, but into the fringe grass in front of me. Chipped that one on a bit hard and two putts later made a 7. Another was on 14. The flag was on the little finger of green front left. I tried to play a little past it and a little right. Shoved it maybe 10 yards right of where I wanted to and the carry over the bunker gets longer the further right you go and that one hit the grass between the green and the bunker and came back down into the sand, left it in there and didn't get up and down on the next one. I think carrywise it carried about as far as I was planning on it doing so. Another was on 6, leaked my drive a little right into the fairway bunker. Hit a nearly good shot from there that went a little left and a little short and kicked into the bunker front left. That was a strike thing and just a hard shot. Did similar on 18. Drive in the right bunker, slightly heavy second that hit the bank between green and bunker again and kicked back into the sand. I think the tiredness manifested more as not squaring the face up so well and less as slowing down.
    • Depends on how short you were coming up on these shots. A bit more wind? Also, maybe you were swinging at 2-3 mph slower the next day.  I think the biggest thing is not adjusting. Like making assuming your stock shot is not enough and taking 1 club up. Not sure what type of adjustments you were making in your decision making. 
    • No one should measure a joint mobility away from that joint. If you go to physical therapy, they are not measuring your knee mobility based on your midline. It is based at the joint. Shoulder mobility should be measured in reference to the shoulder joint. 
    • He's using a driver swing, while I used the iron swing. Bryson goes from about 65° B to 15° B, hence the 50°. If you bend your right elbow, you're going to pull your hands across your chest some. Conversely, if you abduct your right arm and hold onto a grip with your left arm, you can see how extending the right elbow as we do in the golf swing during the downswing will "pull" the right shoulder/humerus forward (adducting it, as going from 65° to 15° of abduction is). Even people who pull their right shoulder WAY too far around them eventually get it "back in front" when their right arm/elbow extends. So, such a motion shows up as shoulder adduction even though the movement that causes it is just widening the trail elbow. The left hand on the grip almost "pulls" the hands forward as the left arm can't stretch much (there's some shoulder protraction, but that's almost maxed out at P4). Oh, I downloaded it and watched it (and commented there) before he blocked me. It's what led to him posting the comment in the "update" above. 😄  Single shoulder range of 75°, and that's going out well into the follow-through. 50° Max range up to impact. Manavian's video is bad. He keeps saying "midline" which is just a horrible way to look at it. He also kept saying that the club was moving that amount — also wrong. Adding left and right together is really freaking dumb. Another golf instructor said "That's like saying the player has 100 degrees of knee bend (adding left knee bend to right knee bend) 🤦‍♂️" (similar to what the biomechanist said about squatting). Also, see my post above about elbow bend. That's why Plummer’s alignment stick demo is so intellectually dishonest. A golfer can't get anywhere near that position on the left with his left hand on the alignment stick (quoted below).  
    • That makes no sense at all.  so, I watched that Instagram. Here is a summary...  Bryson.... Address: Trail Shoulder 0 degrees adduction. P4: Trail Shoulder 65-deg abduction. Impact: Right shoulder 15-deg abduction. P9: 10 degrees adduction. Rory... Address: Trail Shoulder 16 degrees adduction. P4: Trail Shoulder 26 degrees abduction. Impact: Right shoulder 0 degrees abduction.  P9: 18 degrees of adduction.  DJ... Address: Trail Shoulder 4 degrees adduction. P4: Trail Shoulder 42 degrees abduction. Impact: Right shoulder 2 degrees abduction.  P9: 15 degrees of adduction.  Their point is that arm doesn't stay on the trail side. That the arms have to get across the chest from P4 to P9. I mean they do. What matters is the rate of which it happens relative to the position of the swing. The trail shoulder at P9 is not abducted a lot. The range of that total abduction movement is like 40 to 70 degrees. Bryson might be an outlier. Rory might be an outlier as well.  A couple of points.  1. None of them had any adduction at impact. So, this tells me the trail arms stays on the trail side of the body at impact. Is it moving towards lead shoulder, yes. It doesn't happen till post impact. The right side of the body is moving towards the target, so the arms don't have to as much as people think.  2. Trail shoulder adduction from Impact to P9 is 18 to 25 degrees.  3. P9 adduction of the trail shoulder is only about 2 to 12 degrees more adducted than at address. The arms/hands stay in front of the chest a long-time post impact. If Rory, from his address position just rotated his body towards the target and raised up his arms so he is at P9. He basically didn't have to move his trail arm further across his chest than where he started at address. Visualize that for a bit. I bet for people who tend to stall and drag their arms across their body to hit the ball, that would emphasize how much the arms stay in front of the body and how much you have to turn.             
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